28 ms·

It's interesting that commerce/business was this sophisticated in the Bronze Age. I guess it's not that surprising given the famous customer service complaint[0

by spudlyo 4mo ago

It's interesting that commerce/business was this sophisticated in the Bronze Age. I guess it's not that surprising given the famous customer service complaint[0] cuneiform tablet to Ea-nāṣir about receiving the wrong grade of copper ingots and his servant receiving rude service. It's also no wonder that the thing a theory describes exists long before the theory itself. We had language well before we had grammarians, and we had music long before music theory existed. Adam Smith didn't invent moral sentiments or market economics, just as Pythagoras didn't invent music. The article weirdly makes a big deal out this. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complaint_tablet_to_Ea-n%C4%81%E1%B9%A3ir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complaint_tablet_to_Ea-n%C4%81...

cwnyth 4mo ago
Everyone points to Ea-nasir, but that's a meme. Meanwhile, Diocletian outlawed price gouging and standardized prices across a variety of goods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_on_Maximum_Prices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_on_Maximum_Prices From Polanyi, Finley, and Weber to Austin and Malkin, we've come a long way in recognizing the sophistication of ancient economic thought.
- spudlyo 4mo ago
  We are about ~300 years closer to Diocletian than Diocletian was to Ea-nasir. Too bad he didn't have access to Adam Smith, who could have told him that price fixing wouldn't work and might have pointed to Roman currency debasement as one of the major causes of inflation. Of course greed is always a factor I suppose.
  - cwnyth 4mo ago
    Fair! Chronologically, at least, Diocletian's time is closer to us, though not technologically or population-wise. And by Diocletian's time, inflation was already out of control. If anything, the political stability that came with Diocletian's reforms actually helped bolster the economy, though it wouldn't last, as soon the center moved to Byzantium, leaving Rome (and Italy) to whither and die over the next century.
  - microgpt 4mo ago
    Lots of people say lots of things. I don't see why Adam Smith is special. Price fixing can work within reason. Did you know that the communism-themed Fusion Festival fixes the price of a meal, across all 100+ vendors, currently at 7€? This is presumably negotiated between the festival organisers and the food vendors as a reasonable price. (Some of them make a point of advertising 6.50€ but that doesn't actually make a difference. If you like the food you would've bought it for 7€ and if you don't like the food you aren't going to change your mind over 0.50€. They're just throwing away money.)(Some stands that sell more "snacky" items like crepes or smoothies use lower prices.) Because the price is the same everywhere you don't have to comparison-shop and can just pick the food you like.
    - jeremysalwen 4mo ago
      What is a meal though? Do you get the same volume of food from all vendors, and the same number of calories? I definitely order multiple items from restaurants that have small portion sizes, so I suspect some vendors would be better or worse deals even at a uniform price.
      - microgpt 4mo ago
        I don't know what goes on in the back end, but 7€ buys you what you get for more money at other music festivals, including from the exact same vendors.
- WalterBright 4mo ago
  > we've come a long way See "Forty Centuries of Wage and Price Controls" which shows that humans are very slow learners. https://www.amazon.com/Forty-Centuries-Wage-Price-Controls/dp/1610161408 https://www.amazon.com/Forty-Centuries-Wage-Price-Controls/d...
- dosisking 4mo ago
  I guess Diocletian was the first Communist, before there was such a thing as Communism. The price fixing was a failure, as would be expected. I am not sure if 'sophistication' is the right word to describe it.
  - amanaplanacanal 4mo ago
    I thought communism was about central ownership of the means of production? But yeah, long term price fixing always fails.
    - AngryData 4mo ago
      Not neccessarily central, but somehow distributed ownership over business by the working class. The most simple case though being the state owns it and then workers theoretically own the state. An economy of all independent co-op businesses could probably be defined as communism too though.
psychoslave 4mo ago
You forget to mention life and biology, earth and geology, universe and cosmology.
applfanboysbgon 4mo ago
> The article weirdly makes a big deal out this. Ctrl+F "This matters"; of course it's because it's LLM-generated BS which is designed to produce sensationalist slop. (There are about 30 other tells reinforcing this but this one seems to be in literally every single LLM-generated article produced by current models)
Animats 4mo ago
> It's interesting that commerce/business was this sophisticated in the Bronze Age. That trade would have records is not surprising. That trade would follow patterns based on distance is not surprising, especially since transport costs were very high in that era. Hence the "gravity model". The surprise here is in organizational form. The article describes a limited partnership contract, with partner investments and a cap table. It's impressive to see that so early. It requires a legal system, or strong social pressure, able to enforce a private contract that complex. Most early commercial organizations were built around families. Corporations are generally considered to have first appeared in the 1300s, and were rare until the 1700s. I don't think the Roman Empire ever developed the concept of a corporation. Traders, bankers, and merchants existed, of course, but not private organizations larger than one owning family. Although it's hard to tell; not much Roman business info survives.
- jltsiren 4mo ago
  Roman law recognized various types of legal entities at different points of time. Some of the terms they used include "collegium" and "universitas". And that's were the word "university" comes from. It emphasizes that a university is not just any school but a self-governing corporation (or a body) of students and scholars.
teleforce 4mo ago
Another Bronze Age civilization with sophisticated commerce system is Indus Valley Civilisation [1],[2],[3]. The wikipedia entry somehow is outdated [4]. Perhaps some of the new findings are too controversial for the editors, meanwhile reseacher receiving death threat [5]. [1] The Indus Script and Economics. A Role for Indus Seals and Tablets in Rationing and Administration of Labor: https://arxiv.org/abs/1812.00049 https://arxiv.org/abs/1812.00049 [2] Indus civilisation reveals its volumetric system: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/Indus-civilisation-reveals-its-volumetric-system/article16892188.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/Indus-civilisation-re... [3] The Indus Script-Computational Analysis and Interpretations (2020) [video]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF_nJ4vfG-A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF_nJ4vfG-A [4] Indus Valley Civilisation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation [5] Rajesh Rao: Computing a Rosetta Stone for the Indus script [video]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwYxHPXIaao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwYxHPXIaao
Michelangelo11 4mo ago
Right, and that's also true of physical inventions that you might think are a straightforward application of scientific knowledge. The steam engine is a good example -- it was produced by tinkering, and we devised a theory of how it works much later. Probably for the vast majority of human inventions, the thing exists long before the theory of the thing. I think that feels counterintuitive in part because examples to the contrary are very conspicuous -- e.g., the A-bomb. But inventions like that, where a theory is meticulously worked out then applied, probably only happen when you have to follow that path for whatever reason -- for the A-bomb, because of enormous capital expenditures. Yet there are countless inventions that came to be only because someone noticed an interesting effect and built something around it (off the top of my head, the microwave is another example), without creating a theory beforehand.

by spudlyo 4mo ago

cwnyth 4mo ago

Everyone points to Ea-nasir, but that's a meme. Meanwhile, Diocletian outlawed price gouging and standardized prices across a variety of goods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_on_Maximum_Prices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_on_Maximum_Prices From Polanyi, Finley, and Weber to Austin and Malkin, we've come a long way in recognizing the sophistication of ancient economic thought.

spudlyo 4mo ago
We are about ~300 years closer to Diocletian than Diocletian was to Ea-nasir. Too bad he didn't have access to Adam Smith, who could have told him that price fixing wouldn't work and might have pointed to Roman currency debasement as one of the major causes of inflation. Of course greed is always a factor I suppose.
- cwnyth 4mo ago
  Fair! Chronologically, at least, Diocletian's time is closer to us, though not technologically or population-wise. And by Diocletian's time, inflation was already out of control. If anything, the political stability that came with Diocletian's reforms actually helped bolster the economy, though it wouldn't last, as soon the center moved to Byzantium, leaving Rome (and Italy) to whither and die over the next century.
- microgpt 4mo ago
  Lots of people say lots of things. I don't see why Adam Smith is special. Price fixing can work within reason. Did you know that the communism-themed Fusion Festival fixes the price of a meal, across all 100+ vendors, currently at 7€? This is presumably negotiated between the festival organisers and the food vendors as a reasonable price. (Some of them make a point of advertising 6.50€ but that doesn't actually make a difference. If you like the food you would've bought it for 7€ and if you don't like the food you aren't going to change your mind over 0.50€. They're just throwing away money.)(Some stands that sell more "snacky" items like crepes or smoothies use lower prices.) Because the price is the same everywhere you don't have to comparison-shop and can just pick the food you like.
  - jeremysalwen 4mo ago
    What is a meal though? Do you get the same volume of food from all vendors, and the same number of calories? I definitely order multiple items from restaurants that have small portion sizes, so I suspect some vendors would be better or worse deals even at a uniform price.
    - microgpt 4mo ago
      I don't know what goes on in the back end, but 7€ buys you what you get for more money at other music festivals, including from the exact same vendors.
WalterBright 4mo ago
> we've come a long way See "Forty Centuries of Wage and Price Controls" which shows that humans are very slow learners. https://www.amazon.com/Forty-Centuries-Wage-Price-Controls/dp/1610161408 https://www.amazon.com/Forty-Centuries-Wage-Price-Controls/d...
dosisking 4mo ago
I guess Diocletian was the first Communist, before there was such a thing as Communism. The price fixing was a failure, as would be expected. I am not sure if 'sophistication' is the right word to describe it.
- amanaplanacanal 4mo ago
  I thought communism was about central ownership of the means of production? But yeah, long term price fixing always fails.
  - AngryData 4mo ago
    Not neccessarily central, but somehow distributed ownership over business by the working class. The most simple case though being the state owns it and then workers theoretically own the state. An economy of all independent co-op businesses could probably be defined as communism too though.

psychoslave 4mo ago

You forget to mention life and biology, earth and geology, universe and cosmology.

applfanboysbgon 4mo ago

> The article weirdly makes a big deal out this. Ctrl+F "This matters"; of course it's because it's LLM-generated BS which is designed to produce sensationalist slop. (There are about 30 other tells reinforcing this but this one seems to be in literally every single LLM-generated article produced by current models)

Animats 4mo ago

> It's interesting that commerce/business was this sophisticated in the Bronze Age. That trade would have records is not surprising. That trade would follow patterns based on distance is not surprising, especially since transport costs were very high in that era. Hence the "gravity model". The surprise here is in organizational form. The article describes a limited partnership contract, with partner investments and a cap table. It's impressive to see that so early. It requires a legal system, or strong social pressure, able to enforce a private contract that complex. Most early commercial organizations were built around families. Corporations are generally considered to have first appeared in the 1300s, and were rare until the 1700s. I don't think the Roman Empire ever developed the concept of a corporation. Traders, bankers, and merchants existed, of course, but not private organizations larger than one owning family. Although it's hard to tell; not much Roman business info survives.

jltsiren 4mo ago
Roman law recognized various types of legal entities at different points of time. Some of the terms they used include "collegium" and "universitas". And that's were the word "university" comes from. It emphasizes that a university is not just any school but a self-governing corporation (or a body) of students and scholars.

teleforce 4mo ago

Another Bronze Age civilization with sophisticated commerce system is Indus Valley Civilisation [1],[2],[3]. The wikipedia entry somehow is outdated [4]. Perhaps some of the new findings are too controversial for the editors, meanwhile reseacher receiving death threat [5]. [1] The Indus Script and Economics. A Role for Indus Seals and Tablets in Rationing and Administration of Labor: https://arxiv.org/abs/1812.00049 https://arxiv.org/abs/1812.00049 [2] Indus civilisation reveals its volumetric system: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/Indus-civilisation-reveals-its-volumetric-system/article16892188.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/Indus-civilisation-re... [3] The Indus Script-Computational Analysis and Interpretations (2020) [video]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF_nJ4vfG-A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF_nJ4vfG-A [4] Indus Valley Civilisation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation [5] Rajesh Rao: Computing a Rosetta Stone for the Indus script [video]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwYxHPXIaao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwYxHPXIaao

Michelangelo11 4mo ago

Right, and that's also true of physical inventions that you might think are a straightforward application of scientific knowledge. The steam engine is a good example -- it was produced by tinkering, and we devised a theory of how it works much later. Probably for the vast majority of human inventions, the thing exists long before the theory of the thing. I think that feels counterintuitive in part because examples to the contrary are very conspicuous -- e.g., the A-bomb. But inventions like that, where a theory is meticulously worked out then applied, probably only happen when you have to follow that path for whatever reason -- for the A-bomb, because of enormous capital expenditures. Yet there are countless inventions that came to be only because someone noticed an interesting effect and built something around it (off the top of my head, the microwave is another example), without creating a theory beforehand.