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It’s reaching the point of absurdity in my area. People are bringing “All data centers are flammable” signs to city meetings. A plot of land that’s already zon
by miiiiiike 4mo ago
It’s reaching the point of absurdity in my area. People are bringing “All data centers are flammable” signs to city meetings.
A plot of land that’s already zoned for the heaviest of industrial activities, is across the street from a dump, 3 miles from an airport, 16 miles from a nuclear generating station, and in a region with good climate, and no water crunch is a pretty good place for a data center.
Facts don’t matter, it’s a religious fight. Even if you provide numbers specific to the local area there’s no way to pierce the rhetoric.
Too much land? I added up lol the land used by the 10+ golf courses in the area. Dwarfs the proposal.
Too much water? I called the head of the parks department and asked them how much water the golf courses that they operate use each year. Massive.
Regional electricity costs going up? Our nuclear generating station already sells 80-85% of all power generated wholesale to other markets.
Data centers are loud? I measured the noise outside of my house. I live on a busy street. It was much louder than the viral videos going around Facebook with titles like “Data center noise from my porch SCARY MUST WATCH”.
I don’t know about all proposed data centers everywhere, but the one they’re eyeing to build in my backyard is fine by me.
I lived in Northern Virginia for years. Data centers are everywhere.
It’s really hard to explain that centers aren’t bad and are actually far more efficient than the alternatives. Just don’t run them on coal, natural gas, or the souls of orphans. And don’t rely exclusively on evaporative cooling if it’s in the desert.
They’re having fun treating tech people like villains. It was the same or worse with bankers back in 2008-2010. Anything I have to say, any data provided, any comparisons made, are biassed because I “use data centers”. When I explain that they use data centers as well, I get the finger.
When I talked to an anti data center family member who runs a local Facebook news group (5,000+ subscribers) they just kept sending me Google AI summaries as counter points… My god. I don’t even use gen AI.
People want to enjoy the benefits of progress and data centers while still being loudly “moral”. All of this on TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube. How many data centers are involved to get a post from poster to viewer? 2? 3? 8?
A bad data center project proposal somewhere should not mean opposition to data center projects everywhere.
- spencerflem 4mo agoOne refrigerator sized rack at a datacenter takes as much power as 150 homes, and they’re using it for technology that disempowers and annoys people. It’s pretty obviously offensive. All for rezoning golf courses too
- anthonypasq 4mo ago> One refrigerator sized rack at a datacenter takes as much power as 150 homes Is this supposed to scare me or something? I can't even fathom the actual point you are trying to make if it doesn't involve me having an emotional response to this statement.
- spencerflem 4mo agoSeems pretty obvious- that datacenters very measurably contribute to rising costs of electricity and climate change , and unlike aluminum processing or farming which makes things people want, is used for AI which a lot of people resent. It’s a lose-lose
- anthonypasq 4mo ago> datacenters very measurably contribute to rising costs of electricity and climate change the people who make this true are the same people who oppose the data centers. if they just let people build solar and data centers neither of those things would be true.
- spencerflem 4mo agoWho’s saying not to build solar?
- catapart 4mo agoWild to see people pretend like this isn't true while we're still in the middle of seeing how badly this shit has already fucked up hardware prices. in b4 the 'apples and oranges' cope
- lelandfe 4mo agoSurely you have some measure of empathy for their position? I’m sure you certainly did in 08, as people lost their homes. I think it’s a topic that’s scary to many and this datacenter-to-be, or the local banker, just happens to be what they can easily protest.
- pesus 4mo ago[flagged]
- spencerflem 4mo agoYeah it’s freaky. I work in tech too, I know I’m a villain lol
- miiiiiike 4mo agoIs that all you have? Calling people sociopaths? No, I feel a great deal of empathy for and solidarity with my neighbors. Enough that I’ll argue for acting in our self-interest even if it’s unpopular. And what do you do when your neighbors are being mislead? When their fears, anxieties, and hardships are being exploited by demagogues attempting to consolidate their power by whipping them up into an unthinking emotional frenzy? For this region, for this site, the property tax boon from a data center would far outweigh any negative impacts and any other industrial activity would be more harmful to the environment and less beneficial to the community. I’m one person. I vote yes. Everyone gets a vote as well. I’m going to make my case.
- oulipo2 4mo agoYou realize that "golfs are even worse so why people complain" is not a serious argument?
- miiiiiike 4mo agoThat’s not the core of the argument. You know that. I’m putting things into perspective for people who are terrified that the last drops of their potable water and going to be used to generate a meme video.
- oulipo2 4mo agoYes. Because a few golf course are produced every 10 years / 20 years or so. But people generating videos is going to increase exponentially. So this is going to be a huge difference
- micro2588 4mo agoBut in PJM they are almost entirely being powered by natural gas and coal? Even if you contract out power from a nuclear plant some other plant on the grid is now enjoying a higher capacity factor, at the margin natural gas. The data center in question in Utah was marketed as a 9GW full build out natural gas facility more than twice the electrical generation of the entire state. Coal electrical production in the US increased 13% last year.
- miiiiiike 4mo agoI don’t defend every data center everywhere. I’m talking about the proposed data center about 11 miles from my door. In my area we have a nuclear generating station 16 miles from that site. It sells 80-85% of all power generate wholesale to other markets. We have the power infrastructure here.
- micro2588 4mo agoThe amount of nuclear generation is roughly fixed (minus the refurbishment of three mile) in that region. If you add additional large load to the grid and outbid other demand for that power you are just shifting the load you replaced to other sources, which in PJM region would be mostly gas (new or existing) and delaying the decommissioning of existing base load coal plants. Renewables in that region are unfortunately a small percent of electrical generation. I do agree that other demands like water consumption are overblown and could be largely regulated to enforce best practices. What infrastructure we are building as a society to meet this load demand is going to be the lasting impact of this generational infrastructure investment and it's looking like that will be mostly fossil fuel based in the near to mid term.
- qurren 4mo ago> It’s really hard to explain that centers aren’t bad and are actually far more efficient than the alternatives. This isn't about efficiency, power, water, or fire. AT ALL. Massive amounts of people have their jobs and livelihood threatened. The datacenters, which are enabling that, are being deployed in their neighborhoods while everyone in that neighborhood goes jobless. There is no plan of relief in the form of better economic policy, UBI, less taxation of actual humans, or anything else. That is the real crux of what is being fought.
- miiiiiike 4mo agoI’ve noticed that people conflate being anti data center with being anti AI. I don’t have any faith in the current crop of gen AI. I think it’s junk. I don’t think it’s replacing humans in drives. I can barely get it to refactor Sass code into a mixin. Even if the AI bubble pops the world isn’t going to need fewer data centers. If a speculator wants to create a bunch of construction jobs, build a site in a region with the power, water, climate to do so responsibly, and give us a bunch of money in property taxes. I’m for it. I don’t care if his company folds and he loses his shirt. Someone will operate the data center. They can’t get back the money they injected into the community during construction. Eat while there’s food.
- qurren 4mo agoIt's junk for mission-critical software. But stock photographers, tutors, therapists, writers, translators, designers, and others are being replaced in droves. The snowball is starting. Even plumbers. AI told me what to buy from Home Depot and I diagnosed and fixed my last 2 plumbing problems myself. And lawyers. I fought some minor issues on my own with AI guidance.
- miiiiiike 4mo agoWhat a bad idea AI therapy is and I don’t know too many people who are using AI art commercially. Translators, sure. But we’ve been using Google Translate for almost two decades now. You didn’t need AI for your plumbing. My dad had a whole set of books on household chores that we used to fix everything. I do more of the work around my house than most. I won’t touch tall trees to fuck with my breaker box. I do most of my own plumbing. But, plumbers are fine. Most people don’t want to handle their own shit.
- williamdclt 4mo agoYou're not wrong that the position of many anti-datacenter people isn't entirely rational (in the sense of "backed by solid numbers"), but you're entirely missing the point of why they are angry. Consider this: - People are struggling more and more financially, with income that does not keep up with inflation - People are seeing inequality rise with the ultra-rich getting ultra-richer - People are seeing climate change quickly changing their environment for the worst: droughts, heatwaves, storms... - People are expecting climate change to make their financial prospect worse, too And now, they see a wave of building datacenters. Not only do these data centers have externalities for the climate, but their _purpose_ seems like a negative: putting their jobs at risk because AI, redirecting this wealth to the ultra-rich. There's nothing for them in this, it's lose-lose! And they see their own government encouraging and subsidising these projects, how could they not feel betrayed? > People want to enjoy the benefits of progress and data centers while still being loudly “moral”. I don't think so. People would rather these benefits weren't there, but people exist in society and balance principle with practicality. You're allowed to criticise how AI is being brought into society while also using AI yourself, moral purity isn't a requirement to having opinions.
- miiiiiike 4mo agoNo, I know why they’re angry. Hell, I don’t even use gen AI, I still think it’s unreliable junk. However, most of the things that the people in my community are concerned about don’t apply to our region specifically. We’re actually in a position to benefit GREATLY. It’s useful to have that conversation.