6 ms·

The National Parks Were Reportedly Told to Stay Silent on Deaths

128 points by LostMyLogin 3mo ago

mjamil 3mo ago
Non-paywall link [1] [1] https://www.yahoo.com/news/us/articles/national-park-staff-now-cannot-020343757.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/us/articles/national-park-staff-n...
galleywest200 3mo ago
> According to The Washington Post, the internal policy states “Interior shall not confirm a death,” and that this policy applies to “all Interior bureaus and offices” plus “all Interior communications involving fatalities, suspected fatalities, serious injuries or emotionally sensitive incidents.” So now I cannot learn about known bear attacks when I plan a backpacking trip?
- petcat 3mo ago
  What would you learn? You should always be prepared to encounter unrestrained nature when backpacking in a national park.
  - khriss 3mo ago
    It's a bit like saying weather forecasts are useless in Seattle as you should always be prepared for the rain.
  - tshaddox 3mo ago
    I’m somewhat experienced in wilderness backpacking, and I always look into bear protocol anywhere I visit (including talking to the rangers there in person). But it’s disingenuous to suggest that you’d learn nothing from death statistics. Are you suggesting that there’s no need to know that, because if the numbers were too high in an area they’d close it down?
    - sieabahlpark 3mo ago
      [dead]
- jandrewrogers 3mo ago
  If you are going into an area with bears, you should be prepared for bears. Appropriate behavior isn't conditional on someone dying recently. The risks in an area are widely published and posted by the National Park Service. This is basic safety. It is common to see people in National Parks flagrantly ignore the many warnings. Honestly, I am surprised it is only 350 deaths per year.
  - teachrdan 3mo ago
    > Honestly, I am surprised it is only 350 deaths per year. Isn't this exactly why we need to know how many deaths there are -- so we can judge the level of risk we face?
    - jandrewrogers 3mo ago
      The number of deaths tell you relatively little about the risks because almost all of them are preventable. If you don't ignore the myriad highly visible warnings, the risks are below the noise floor. You take a bigger risk of death driving to the National Park. For example, dozens of people die every year due to heat stroke and dehydration in places like Death Valley, Joshua Tree, and White Sands. The National Park Service posts many large signs warning you to bring sufficient water that thousands of people ignore. Most people that ignore the warning don't die but you could eliminate the risk entirely by simply staying hydrated.
      - collingreen 3mo ago
        You keep using numbers to underpin your comments. The parent's point is that it's important to have access to numbers like this. From where I'm sitting it seems like you very much agree despite your comments sounding like disagreement or deflection.
        jandrewrogers 3mo ago
        The National Park Service post signs in specific areas that keep a running tally of how many people have died in that spot. I don’t have any objection to those signs, they are kind of interesting in a train wreck sort of way. Despite that, the numbers on those signs go up every year. Knowing about a death in the last 24 hours doesn’t matter because it doesn’t materially impact the prevalence of the behavior that is the root cause of the deaths. At the same time, the government has an interest in not letting random employees with hot takes talk to the media with incomplete or erroneous information; this also is a liability. That is standard operating procedure almost everywhere, I just find it weird that we care here, particularly when it has zero relevance to safety. No lives are being lost or saved by this policy. As an observation, I think few people would accept the kinds of policies that would be required to actually reduce deaths in National Parks.
- jasonfarnon 3mo ago
  Of course you can: https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/mortality-data.htm https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/mortality-data.htm
  - LostMyLogin 3mo ago
    This is incomplete and only shows incidents that were validated by the NPS and opted to be released to the public by the park service. The only way to get the true number of cases is through a FOIA request.
- IncreasePosts 3mo ago
  If you're hiking into brown bear country just take a 10mm and some bear spray, regardless of whether there have been any recent attacks or not
msie 3mo ago
[flagged]
- mannanj 3mo ago
  [flagged]
- collingreen 3mo ago
  Unfortunately this simple answer makes more sense than random acts of villainy.
  - HoldOnAMinute 3mo ago
    These are the same people who said that if you stop testing for COVID, it won't be a problem any more
    - trick-or-treat 3mo ago
      And yet... they're no longer testing and it doesn't seem to be a problem anymore, lol.
      - collingreen 3mo ago
        I'll never understand people who think endemic disease is a win or not a problem.
- TurdF3rguson 3mo ago
  [flagged]
slg 3mo ago
One thing that I can't get over about this administration is its cartoon villainy. There are all sorts of substantive and important issues in which people can have viable disagreements. Even when I disagree with people on those issues, I can usually at least understand their motivation. But this administration has so many policies like this which both seem completely unimportant to be worthy of focus and yet are also seemingly only motivated to make things worse. I truly can't imagine why anyone would put their energy into enacting a policy like this that is so transparently wrong. And I also don't know why people don't see policies like this as a canary in the coal mine for the administration's other positions.
- danjl 3mo ago
  The insecurity of this administration is screaming
- ks2048 3mo ago
  All information gathering is bad if you’re willing to lie about anything and prefer to create a propagandized version of reality.
- wahern 3mo ago
  I don't think it's comprehensible at the individual level, but at population scales even the worst leaders tend to maintain a sizeable level of support. Trump and Chavez have alot in common[1], and nearly half of Venezuelans still supported Chavez at the end, when Venezuela had already been wrecked. Even Maduro had double-digit support in the last election (nominally 30% but probably less in reality). Cult of personality is a powerful thing, and can linger even after the personality is gone. I wouldn't expect MAGA to disappear overnight. [1] Does this sound familiar? https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2003/12/03/the-cornered-narcissist/ https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2003/12/03/the-cornered-na...
- HoldOnAMinute 3mo ago
  Flooding the zone. They're getting you to waste your time and energy on this, so you don't see what they are really doing. This is not a situation where good actors have different ideas on how to best administer the country. These are criminals. They are committing crimes. You are the victim, not their peer.
naturalmovement 3mo ago
[flagged]
- sieabahlpark 3mo ago
  [dead]
s1artibartfast 3mo ago
> Interior shall not confirm the severity of injuries,” the memo reportedly said, according to The Washington Post. “Interior may state only that an individual was transported and the method of transport" The visitor took a hearse home...
ChrisArchitect 3mo ago
Cleaned up url: https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/environment/nps-internal-memo-deaths/ https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/environment/...
nephihaha 3mo ago
Ironically National Park deaths in the USA have been getting a lot of publicity over the last few years, thanks to David Paulides' "The Missing 411". For various reasons, I strongly disagree with Paulides – it is very easy to get lost in wilderness, and very easy for a body to be missed in thick brush – but it's clearly enough of an issue for Paulides to trade off. Deliberately hiding info like this is only going to add fuel to the fire. I wonder if the National Parks were concerned they would scare paying visitors off if they knew how many accidents and bear attacks there were.
raadore 3mo ago
[dead]

128 points by LostMyLogin 3mo ago

Non-paywall link [1] [1] https://www.yahoo.com/news/us/articles/national-park-staff-now-cannot-020343757.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/us/articles/national-park-staff-n...

galleywest200 3mo ago

> According to The Washington Post, the internal policy states “Interior shall not confirm a death,” and that this policy applies to “all Interior bureaus and offices” plus “all Interior communications involving fatalities, suspected fatalities, serious injuries or emotionally sensitive incidents.” So now I cannot learn about known bear attacks when I plan a backpacking trip?

petcat 3mo ago
What would you learn? You should always be prepared to encounter unrestrained nature when backpacking in a national park.
- khriss 3mo ago
  It's a bit like saying weather forecasts are useless in Seattle as you should always be prepared for the rain.
- tshaddox 3mo ago
  I’m somewhat experienced in wilderness backpacking, and I always look into bear protocol anywhere I visit (including talking to the rangers there in person). But it’s disingenuous to suggest that you’d learn nothing from death statistics. Are you suggesting that there’s no need to know that, because if the numbers were too high in an area they’d close it down?
  - sieabahlpark 3mo ago
    [dead]
jandrewrogers 3mo ago
If you are going into an area with bears, you should be prepared for bears. Appropriate behavior isn't conditional on someone dying recently. The risks in an area are widely published and posted by the National Park Service. This is basic safety. It is common to see people in National Parks flagrantly ignore the many warnings. Honestly, I am surprised it is only 350 deaths per year.
- teachrdan 3mo ago
  > Honestly, I am surprised it is only 350 deaths per year. Isn't this exactly why we need to know how many deaths there are -- so we can judge the level of risk we face?
  - jandrewrogers 3mo ago
    The number of deaths tell you relatively little about the risks because almost all of them are preventable. If you don't ignore the myriad highly visible warnings, the risks are below the noise floor. You take a bigger risk of death driving to the National Park. For example, dozens of people die every year due to heat stroke and dehydration in places like Death Valley, Joshua Tree, and White Sands. The National Park Service posts many large signs warning you to bring sufficient water that thousands of people ignore. Most people that ignore the warning don't die but you could eliminate the risk entirely by simply staying hydrated.
    - collingreen 3mo ago
      You keep using numbers to underpin your comments. The parent's point is that it's important to have access to numbers like this. From where I'm sitting it seems like you very much agree despite your comments sounding like disagreement or deflection.
      - jandrewrogers 3mo ago
        The National Park Service post signs in specific areas that keep a running tally of how many people have died in that spot. I don’t have any objection to those signs, they are kind of interesting in a train wreck sort of way. Despite that, the numbers on those signs go up every year. Knowing about a death in the last 24 hours doesn’t matter because it doesn’t materially impact the prevalence of the behavior that is the root cause of the deaths. At the same time, the government has an interest in not letting random employees with hot takes talk to the media with incomplete or erroneous information; this also is a liability. That is standard operating procedure almost everywhere, I just find it weird that we care here, particularly when it has zero relevance to safety. No lives are being lost or saved by this policy. As an observation, I think few people would accept the kinds of policies that would be required to actually reduce deaths in National Parks.
jasonfarnon 3mo ago
Of course you can: https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/mortality-data.htm https://www.nps.gov/aboutus/mortality-data.htm
- LostMyLogin 3mo ago
  This is incomplete and only shows incidents that were validated by the NPS and opted to be released to the public by the park service. The only way to get the true number of cases is through a FOIA request.
IncreasePosts 3mo ago
If you're hiking into brown bear country just take a 10mm and some bear spray, regardless of whether there have been any recent attacks or not

msie 3mo ago

[flagged]

mannanj 3mo ago
[flagged]
collingreen 3mo ago
Unfortunately this simple answer makes more sense than random acts of villainy.
- HoldOnAMinute 3mo ago
  These are the same people who said that if you stop testing for COVID, it won't be a problem any more
  - trick-or-treat 3mo ago
    And yet... they're no longer testing and it doesn't seem to be a problem anymore, lol.
    - collingreen 3mo ago
      I'll never understand people who think endemic disease is a win or not a problem.
TurdF3rguson 3mo ago
[flagged]

slg 3mo ago

One thing that I can't get over about this administration is its cartoon villainy. There are all sorts of substantive and important issues in which people can have viable disagreements. Even when I disagree with people on those issues, I can usually at least understand their motivation. But this administration has so many policies like this which both seem completely unimportant to be worthy of focus and yet are also seemingly only motivated to make things worse. I truly can't imagine why anyone would put their energy into enacting a policy like this that is so transparently wrong. And I also don't know why people don't see policies like this as a canary in the coal mine for the administration's other positions.

danjl 3mo ago
The insecurity of this administration is screaming
ks2048 3mo ago
All information gathering is bad if you’re willing to lie about anything and prefer to create a propagandized version of reality.
wahern 3mo ago
I don't think it's comprehensible at the individual level, but at population scales even the worst leaders tend to maintain a sizeable level of support. Trump and Chavez have alot in common[1], and nearly half of Venezuelans still supported Chavez at the end, when Venezuela had already been wrecked. Even Maduro had double-digit support in the last election (nominally 30% but probably less in reality). Cult of personality is a powerful thing, and can linger even after the personality is gone. I wouldn't expect MAGA to disappear overnight. [1] Does this sound familiar? https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2003/12/03/the-cornered-narcissist/ https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2003/12/03/the-cornered-na...
HoldOnAMinute 3mo ago
Flooding the zone. They're getting you to waste your time and energy on this, so you don't see what they are really doing. This is not a situation where good actors have different ideas on how to best administer the country. These are criminals. They are committing crimes. You are the victim, not their peer.

naturalmovement 3mo ago

[flagged]

sieabahlpark 3mo ago
[dead]

s1artibartfast 3mo ago

> Interior shall not confirm the severity of injuries,” the memo reportedly said, according to The Washington Post. “Interior may state only that an individual was transported and the method of transport" The visitor took a hearse home...

ChrisArchitect 3mo ago

Cleaned up url: https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/environment/nps-internal-memo-deaths/ https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/environment/...

nephihaha 3mo ago

Ironically National Park deaths in the USA have been getting a lot of publicity over the last few years, thanks to David Paulides' "The Missing 411". For various reasons, I strongly disagree with Paulides – it is very easy to get lost in wilderness, and very easy for a body to be missed in thick brush – but it's clearly enough of an issue for Paulides to trade off. Deliberately hiding info like this is only going to add fuel to the fire. I wonder if the National Parks were concerned they would scare paying visitors off if they knew how many accidents and bear attacks there were.

raadore 3mo ago

[dead]