5 ms·

"His money and assets would all be taken from him, he'd be thrown into a cell and possibly tortured." He isn't in the backwater of Afghanistan, he's in a democ

"His money and assets would all be taken from him, he'd be thrown into a cell and possibly tortured." He isn't in the backwater of Afghanistan, he's in a democratic country with an independent judiciary. What makes you think he would be tortured, let alone killed?

jrockway 14y ago
He seems to suffer from interactions with corrupt police. They could certainly beat the shit out of him after arrest with very few consequences. That's true even in the US. As an example of special circumstances: how's Bradley Manning's trial coming along?
- andrewfelix 14y ago
  That's a Logical fallacy. This has nothing to do with Bradley Manning. As far as you and I know Mcafee quite possibly killed his neighbour. Why shouldn't the authorities in the country where the crime was committed get hold of him? If the dead neighbour had been an American celebrity, this argument would sound very different.
  - GuiA 14y ago
    > This has nothing to do with Bradley Manning. Yes it has, in the context of the present argument. Grandparent is saying that because you supposedly are in a "democratic country with an independent judiciary" doesn't mean that you won't be tortured/get a fair trial/etc., and uses Bradley Manning as an example of this.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        If you were to assert that in democratic societies with functioning justice systems people are not let off for murder, then I think OJ would be a perfectly reasonable counter argument.
        chimi 14y ago
        There's actually a lot of evidence that the vic was involved with and owed a lot of money to coke dealers who killed her in a manner consistent with prior M.O.s so while I did at one point believe OJ did it, there is some doubt in my mind and without having been at the trial and heard all the evidence I do not believe OJ actually would be a reasonable counter argument. She had been telling the coke dealers, "Don't worry my man's rich he'll pay." When in fact he had told her many times that he wouldn't pay and many of his friends told him he better get very far away from her while he still can and before she gets herself and maybe him killed by the people she had been taking drugs from.
        jlgreco 14y ago
        Eh, it's not really on topic... but I mean really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Did_It http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Did_It ?
  - vertr 14y ago
    If you are going to call something out as fallacious, you should name which fallacy it is. Otherwise your statement is just as good as saying 'you are wrong!'
- mc32 14y ago
  Not to sidetrack things, but Manning was not a civilian, and thus does not enjoy the same freedoms under the law as a civilian. So comparing a civilian's (Mcafee's) fate with that of a non-civilian is apples and oranges.
  - trevelyan 14y ago
    Manning is still supposed to have the right to due process (a speedy trial rather than indefinite detention) and freedom from torture.
    - mc32 14y ago
      Military justice is not the same as civilian justice -one's rights are curtailed. Thst's not to say your assertion is incorrect, rather, it might give the impression one might have rights akin to that a civilian --that, I understand, would be incorrect.
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        The rights that are relevant to this discussion, primarily the right to not be tortured, is still in full effect for military personnel.
    - philwelch 14y ago
      He's had due process for awhile: http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/1202/Hearing-for-Bradley-Manning-focuses-on-harsh-prison-treatment http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/1202/Heari...
  - jrockway 14y ago
    That's true, but all humans have the same human rights and he's a human, so the law is largely irrelevant in any discussion regarding ethics and democratic ideals.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- philwelch 14y ago
  Well, a few days ago he testified about the conditions of his incarceration in a pre-trial hearing: http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/1202/Hearing-for-Bradley-Manning-focuses-on-harsh-prison-treatment http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/1202/Heari...
shortlived 14y ago
Last time i checked Belize and Guatemala have very poor justice systems.. It's better than Afghanistan but still not first world. http://www.heritage.org/index/country/guatemala http://www.heritage.org/index/country/guatemala
- andrewfelix 14y ago
  I'm not going to defend the Belize justice system. But I wouldn't depend on the Heritage Foundation for any objective information. It's a right wing think tank.
  - bcoates 14y ago
    Why would that matter? They show their methodology, the "corruption" index is mostly taken from Transparency International's Corruption Perception Index, where Belize and Guatemala do not do well.
- aw3c2 14y ago
  you say poor justice, how comparable to the poor justice in the USA? would he be tortured without trial? do they have death penalty?
DigitalSea 14y ago
We are talking about a country here where money is king. If you have money, you have clout and influence. There's nothing stopping anyone taking assets and offing him in some remote desolate field where nobody would find him. Considering the amount of attention McAfee has received, if he were to disappear there would be some serious questions so I doubt they'd kill him.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  I don't know, would there actually be questions if he disappeared? The guy seems pretty crazy, if he dropped off the face of the earth completely I don't think I would really think much of it. Now, if he or the government announced that he were captured, then he disappeared, that would certainly be different.
- markdown 14y ago
  > We are talking about a country here where money is king. If you have money, you have clout and influence. So... every country?
ekianjo 14y ago
You think there are no government-driven assassinations even in democraties with "independent" judiciary ? You live in a very safe world, then. This being said, I know nothing about Belize so this comment may or may not apply to that part of the world.
jrogers65 14y ago
I don't understand why you would assert that he is in a democratic country with an independent judiciary when Belize's corruption index is extremely high. See for yourself (it's near the bottom of the list): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index The real question is why you would make unfounded claims like that.
- rwmj 14y ago
  Perhaps he should have thought about that before going to live there? Definitely he should have thought about it before running some sort of drug lab, hanging around with gangsters, and possibly even murdering someone.
  - jrogers65 14y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

jrockway 14y ago

He seems to suffer from interactions with corrupt police. They could certainly beat the shit out of him after arrest with very few consequences. That's true even in the US. As an example of special circumstances: how's Bradley Manning's trial coming along?

andrewfelix 14y ago
That's a Logical fallacy. This has nothing to do with Bradley Manning. As far as you and I know Mcafee quite possibly killed his neighbour. Why shouldn't the authorities in the country where the crime was committed get hold of him? If the dead neighbour had been an American celebrity, this argument would sound very different.
- GuiA 14y ago
  > This has nothing to do with Bradley Manning. Yes it has, in the context of the present argument. Grandparent is saying that because you supposedly are in a "democratic country with an independent judiciary" doesn't mean that you won't be tortured/get a fair trial/etc., and uses Bradley Manning as an example of this.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      If you were to assert that in democratic societies with functioning justice systems people are not let off for murder, then I think OJ would be a perfectly reasonable counter argument.
      - chimi 14y ago
        There's actually a lot of evidence that the vic was involved with and owed a lot of money to coke dealers who killed her in a manner consistent with prior M.O.s so while I did at one point believe OJ did it, there is some doubt in my mind and without having been at the trial and heard all the evidence I do not believe OJ actually would be a reasonable counter argument. She had been telling the coke dealers, "Don't worry my man's rich he'll pay." When in fact he had told her many times that he wouldn't pay and many of his friends told him he better get very far away from her while he still can and before she gets herself and maybe him killed by the people she had been taking drugs from.
        jlgreco 14y ago
        Eh, it's not really on topic... but I mean really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Did_It http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Did_It ?
- vertr 14y ago
  If you are going to call something out as fallacious, you should name which fallacy it is. Otherwise your statement is just as good as saying 'you are wrong!'
mc32 14y ago
Not to sidetrack things, but Manning was not a civilian, and thus does not enjoy the same freedoms under the law as a civilian. So comparing a civilian's (Mcafee's) fate with that of a non-civilian is apples and oranges.
- trevelyan 14y ago
  Manning is still supposed to have the right to due process (a speedy trial rather than indefinite detention) and freedom from torture.
  - mc32 14y ago
    Military justice is not the same as civilian justice -one's rights are curtailed. Thst's not to say your assertion is incorrect, rather, it might give the impression one might have rights akin to that a civilian --that, I understand, would be incorrect.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      The rights that are relevant to this discussion, primarily the right to not be tortured, is still in full effect for military personnel.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    He's had due process for awhile: http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/1202/Hearing-for-Bradley-Manning-focuses-on-harsh-prison-treatment http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/1202/Heari...
- jrockway 14y ago
  That's true, but all humans have the same human rights and he's a human, so the law is largely irrelevant in any discussion regarding ethics and democratic ideals.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
philwelch 14y ago
Well, a few days ago he testified about the conditions of his incarceration in a pre-trial hearing: http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/1202/Hearing-for-Bradley-Manning-focuses-on-harsh-prison-treatment http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/1202/Heari...

shortlived 14y ago

Last time i checked Belize and Guatemala have very poor justice systems.. It's better than Afghanistan but still not first world. http://www.heritage.org/index/country/guatemala http://www.heritage.org/index/country/guatemala

andrewfelix 14y ago
I'm not going to defend the Belize justice system. But I wouldn't depend on the Heritage Foundation for any objective information. It's a right wing think tank.
- bcoates 14y ago
  Why would that matter? They show their methodology, the "corruption" index is mostly taken from Transparency International's Corruption Perception Index, where Belize and Guatemala do not do well.
aw3c2 14y ago
you say poor justice, how comparable to the poor justice in the USA? would he be tortured without trial? do they have death penalty?

DigitalSea 14y ago

We are talking about a country here where money is king. If you have money, you have clout and influence. There's nothing stopping anyone taking assets and offing him in some remote desolate field where nobody would find him. Considering the amount of attention McAfee has received, if he were to disappear there would be some serious questions so I doubt they'd kill him.

jlgreco 14y ago
I don't know, would there actually be questions if he disappeared? The guy seems pretty crazy, if he dropped off the face of the earth completely I don't think I would really think much of it. Now, if he or the government announced that he were captured, then he disappeared, that would certainly be different.
markdown 14y ago
> We are talking about a country here where money is king. If you have money, you have clout and influence. So... every country?

ekianjo 14y ago

You think there are no government-driven assassinations even in democraties with "independent" judiciary ? You live in a very safe world, then. This being said, I know nothing about Belize so this comment may or may not apply to that part of the world.

jrogers65 14y ago

I don't understand why you would assert that he is in a democratic country with an independent judiciary when Belize's corruption index is extremely high. See for yourself (it's near the bottom of the list): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index The real question is why you would make unfounded claims like that.

rwmj 14y ago
Perhaps he should have thought about that before going to live there? Definitely he should have thought about it before running some sort of drug lab, hanging around with gangsters, and possibly even murdering someone.
- jrogers65 14y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis