3 ms·

It’s because large language models give a variable reward and it’s essentially an addiction that many people have not even recognized.

fcarraldo 4mo ago
Yep, LLM chat is classic skinner box design. It’s effectively gambling.
tptacek 4mo ago
In what sense is this true that isn't true of a simple web search?
- Joel_Mckay 4mo ago
  A web search doesn't use isomorphic plagiarism of naive users work to sell to other users. LLM are actually good at context search, but are mostly not being used as intended. The LLM hype bubble has to end sooner or later. =3
  - mewpmewp2 4mo ago
    How does that answer the question or relate to variable reward and addiction mechanisms? This just seems another unrelated negative sentiment argument towards LLMs?
    - Joel_Mckay 4mo ago
      Not really, people are simply fooled by pernicious sycophantic idealism, and their own cognitive biases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_Turk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_Turk LLM are great for context search, but were never real "AI" in any sense except in media/PR sensationalism. Scientific hubris and unethical use of LLM is interesting as exposes the primitive impulsive nature of many. Best of luck =3
      - dqv 4mo ago
        This is my read on how people react to LLM responses, especially about personal/social issues too - that many are fooled by the LLM. On occasion, someone has shown me LLM output, believing it to be a profound and illuminating response to their prompt. Even being able to see the original prompt, the response just seemed kind of empty (blocking out the advertisingesque magnificent language leaves little substance behind), but somehow they were convinced that it was a coherent answer to their prompt and even peeved with me for not sharing their astonishment at how well it addressed their concerns. It's a kind of symbiosis between the LLM and the prompter, where the prompter's own cognitive biases fill in what the LLM can not. Since I don't share their same biases, the response is nearly meaningless. Very uncomfortable experience having to pretend to agree with how profound it is to not make their prompter upset.
        mewpmewp2 4mo ago
        Why did you pretend to agree with them? Would a person with such biases, seeking validation from an LLM having been anything else without an LLM? If everyone in real life are trying to avoid upsetting such person, the humans in their real life would offer the same experience, no? Or alternatively said person would go into conflict with anyone pointing out issues in their views, ending up only surrounding themselves with people who will agree with them in order to not upset them. I guess my concern is why did you agree with them instead of using the opportunity to showcase another point of view?
        dqv 4mo ago
        Emotional intelligence. These interactions aren't people sharing points of view, they are sharing something they see as meaningful, and no matter how politely I convey it, it's still going to come off as "that sounds stupid and meaningless". It's not like I have better advice to give. Not worth dying on that hill.
        mewpmewp2 4mo ago
        What is your relation to those people? Because, what is the use of emotional intelligence if it doesn't help them to see their biases and instead confirms them. If presumably their biases are harmful for their lives? I just see those excuses of "emotional intelligence" to stay dishonest in my life a lot, is that the right way to live though? In a way those LLMs are doing the same though, and in a lot of ways those people are then treated as some beings that can't handle the actual real world. I guess, just in real life when talking to people, I would just not pretend and go along with something like this, so it's uncomfortable for me to also imagine that someone would go along just for the sake of not upsetting someone for some virtue called "emotional intelligence". I can understand being polite for the sake of it to someone old and in their deathbed, but I just really don't like the idea of pretending or lying to people with their whole lives ahead and going counter to what you believe to be the truth for some social comfort or emotional intelligence aspect. If they can't handle whatever is the truth, it's their problem to deal with, but they better know alternative views to their malformed or harmful ideas of life.
- mewpmewp2 4mo ago
  And on the other hand talking to people, but I guess most extroverts in a way are "addicted" to talking to people as well, so it's a fair comparison. From my personal experience talking to people can end in wildly differing and unexpected results. In fact, I think rewards from LLMs are way more static as opposed to rewards from talking to people.
Joel_Mckay 4mo ago
They used to call it schizophrenia, and put people in padded rooms for such delusions. Now, "AI" ego manipulation is a mental dildo for people that should know better philosophically. However, we shouldn't kink shame, so give this post a thumbs-down if you agree. lol =3
mewpmewp2 4mo ago
That is interesting, but also I do wonder, what in life doesn't have a variable reward? You could say that any routine activities like maybe cleaning, etc, is all the same, but most non routine things in life seem like they would have variable reward? E.g. talking to people definitely yields in very variable rewards, if you do non routine work, there's constant variable rewards, etc.
- Joel_Mckay 4mo ago
  Happiness is derived from a balance of a meaningful life, and pleasant experiences we may choose. Also, one may have no pain or concerns, and still existentially despair over a meaningless life built on intelligence campaigns exploiting millions of people. Only psychopaths find short lived joy in harming others, and only make up around 1% of general populations. Have a wonderful day =3
  - cindyllm 4mo ago
    [dead]
  - mewpmewp2 4mo ago
    I think happiness is very complicated. Would you think there's a perfect formula to follow that will yield you the "happiness"? And how does this relate to different brain wirings of different people? Would you say per brain wiring there's a different specific ideal formula one would have to follow? E.g. there's some base things like getting proper sleep, exercise, diet, but then there's some more specific things for that brain wiring?
    - Joel_Mckay 4mo ago
      >Would you think there's a perfect formula The advice comes from coursework most medical students must do in year 2. It is backed by research data on integrated healthcare programs. Simply avoiding misery is not the whole equation. =3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO1mTELoj6o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO1mTELoj6o
russ-curry 4mo ago
It's a slot machine that plays you.
akramachamarei 4mo ago
> it’s essentially an addiction that many people have not even recognized A little patronizing, no? Maybe some people actually like it, even if you or I don't.

fcarraldo 4mo ago

Yep, LLM chat is classic skinner box design. It’s effectively gambling.

tptacek 4mo ago

In what sense is this true that isn't true of a simple web search?

Joel_Mckay 4mo ago
A web search doesn't use isomorphic plagiarism of naive users work to sell to other users. LLM are actually good at context search, but are mostly not being used as intended. The LLM hype bubble has to end sooner or later. =3
- mewpmewp2 4mo ago
  How does that answer the question or relate to variable reward and addiction mechanisms? This just seems another unrelated negative sentiment argument towards LLMs?
  - Joel_Mckay 4mo ago
    Not really, people are simply fooled by pernicious sycophantic idealism, and their own cognitive biases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_Turk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_Turk LLM are great for context search, but were never real "AI" in any sense except in media/PR sensationalism. Scientific hubris and unethical use of LLM is interesting as exposes the primitive impulsive nature of many. Best of luck =3
    - dqv 4mo ago
      This is my read on how people react to LLM responses, especially about personal/social issues too - that many are fooled by the LLM. On occasion, someone has shown me LLM output, believing it to be a profound and illuminating response to their prompt. Even being able to see the original prompt, the response just seemed kind of empty (blocking out the advertisingesque magnificent language leaves little substance behind), but somehow they were convinced that it was a coherent answer to their prompt and even peeved with me for not sharing their astonishment at how well it addressed their concerns. It's a kind of symbiosis between the LLM and the prompter, where the prompter's own cognitive biases fill in what the LLM can not. Since I don't share their same biases, the response is nearly meaningless. Very uncomfortable experience having to pretend to agree with how profound it is to not make their prompter upset.
      - mewpmewp2 4mo ago
        Why did you pretend to agree with them? Would a person with such biases, seeking validation from an LLM having been anything else without an LLM? If everyone in real life are trying to avoid upsetting such person, the humans in their real life would offer the same experience, no? Or alternatively said person would go into conflict with anyone pointing out issues in their views, ending up only surrounding themselves with people who will agree with them in order to not upset them. I guess my concern is why did you agree with them instead of using the opportunity to showcase another point of view?
        dqv 4mo ago
        Emotional intelligence. These interactions aren't people sharing points of view, they are sharing something they see as meaningful, and no matter how politely I convey it, it's still going to come off as "that sounds stupid and meaningless". It's not like I have better advice to give. Not worth dying on that hill.
        mewpmewp2 4mo ago
        What is your relation to those people? Because, what is the use of emotional intelligence if it doesn't help them to see their biases and instead confirms them. If presumably their biases are harmful for their lives? I just see those excuses of "emotional intelligence" to stay dishonest in my life a lot, is that the right way to live though? In a way those LLMs are doing the same though, and in a lot of ways those people are then treated as some beings that can't handle the actual real world. I guess, just in real life when talking to people, I would just not pretend and go along with something like this, so it's uncomfortable for me to also imagine that someone would go along just for the sake of not upsetting someone for some virtue called "emotional intelligence". I can understand being polite for the sake of it to someone old and in their deathbed, but I just really don't like the idea of pretending or lying to people with their whole lives ahead and going counter to what you believe to be the truth for some social comfort or emotional intelligence aspect. If they can't handle whatever is the truth, it's their problem to deal with, but they better know alternative views to their malformed or harmful ideas of life.
mewpmewp2 4mo ago
And on the other hand talking to people, but I guess most extroverts in a way are "addicted" to talking to people as well, so it's a fair comparison. From my personal experience talking to people can end in wildly differing and unexpected results. In fact, I think rewards from LLMs are way more static as opposed to rewards from talking to people.

Joel_Mckay 4mo ago

They used to call it schizophrenia, and put people in padded rooms for such delusions. Now, "AI" ego manipulation is a mental dildo for people that should know better philosophically. However, we shouldn't kink shame, so give this post a thumbs-down if you agree. lol =3

mewpmewp2 4mo ago

That is interesting, but also I do wonder, what in life doesn't have a variable reward? You could say that any routine activities like maybe cleaning, etc, is all the same, but most non routine things in life seem like they would have variable reward? E.g. talking to people definitely yields in very variable rewards, if you do non routine work, there's constant variable rewards, etc.

Joel_Mckay 4mo ago
Happiness is derived from a balance of a meaningful life, and pleasant experiences we may choose. Also, one may have no pain or concerns, and still existentially despair over a meaningless life built on intelligence campaigns exploiting millions of people. Only psychopaths find short lived joy in harming others, and only make up around 1% of general populations. Have a wonderful day =3
- cindyllm 4mo ago
  [dead]
- mewpmewp2 4mo ago
  I think happiness is very complicated. Would you think there's a perfect formula to follow that will yield you the "happiness"? And how does this relate to different brain wirings of different people? Would you say per brain wiring there's a different specific ideal formula one would have to follow? E.g. there's some base things like getting proper sleep, exercise, diet, but then there's some more specific things for that brain wiring?
  - Joel_Mckay 4mo ago
    >Would you think there's a perfect formula The advice comes from coursework most medical students must do in year 2. It is backed by research data on integrated healthcare programs. Simply avoiding misery is not the whole equation. =3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO1mTELoj6o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO1mTELoj6o

russ-curry 4mo ago

It's a slot machine that plays you.

akramachamarei 4mo ago

> it’s essentially an addiction that many people have not even recognized A little patronizing, no? Maybe some people actually like it, even if you or I don't.