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> What I didn’t like about this series of books was choosing “garbage collection” as umbrella term for both tracing GC and reference counting, without verifying

by pron 4mo ago

> What I didn’t like about this series of books was choosing “garbage collection” as umbrella term for both tracing GC and reference counting, without verifying if programming community would agree with that, which turned out they didn’t. This has been the standard terminology in memory management research for many decades. The only programmers who don't like it are those who don't understand the principles of memory management. > By that definition, C++ code has garbage collection if it uses std::shared_ptr That's right. > going against widespread common usage of the term “garbage collected programming language” which specifically contrasts manual languages like C++ or Rust against garbage collected ones. Since this contrast mostly exists in the minds of people who don't understand memory management, going against this common misconception is good. That's not to say that there aren't some interesting tradeoffs that often align with the colloquial perception, "garbage collection" isn't the interesting part. As you said, both C++ and Rust use GC; in fact, they use a GC somewhat similar to the one used by CPython.

gdwatson 4mo ago
This reminds me a bit of the way academics in programming language theory internalized the type-theoretic definition of the word “type” over and against the traditional programming definition. You sometimes see people who try to correct the term “dynamically typed language,” which makes perfect sense when types are data types, to “untyped” or “unityped,” which makes sense when types are mathematical constructs equivalent to proofs. The colloquial term is clear in context, and it draws its boundaries in useful places. If academia prefers other boundaries to simplify its formal definitions, that’s understandable. But the rest of us shouldn’t restrict our language in that way.
- gf000 4mo ago
  I think GC's definition is pretty clear cut. How is counting references to determine when a lifetime ends materially different from another way of doing the same thing? Like there is even a paper that shows that one is tracking liveness, while the other tracks "deadness" and they are literally going at the same thing from different ends. If anything, I often see a bias against tracing GCs from the people misusing the term, to "hype up" their choice of language that it must be better for not having (tracing) GC, when it usually just has ref counting which in many metrics is actually worse, given equal usage -- rust/cpp gets away from that because they only use it on a handful of objects, other lifetimes being driven by RAII, which is pretty much just compile-time decidable ref counting?
  - hayley-patton 4mo ago
    > Like there is even a paper that shows that one is tracking liveness, while the other tracks "deadness" and they are literally going at the same thing from different ends. https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1035292.1028982 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1035292.1028982
  - gdwatson 4mo ago
    I think a lot of people just want to be able to discuss different areas of the automatic memory management design space separately, and maintaining the distinction between reference counting and garbage collection (meaning tracing GCs) lets them do that. As for me personally, I consider refcounting and GC overlapping categories. I am perfectly willing to call CPython’s reference counting plus cycle collector a form of garbage collection, because it is transparent to the programmer. Every memory management technique has tradeoffs and pathological edge cases, but since you don’t have to consider them in the ordinary course of programming I’d say it counts. If you had to break cycles manually, or to annotate which references should be counted, I’d call that refcounting but not GC – as in the C++ stdlib.
    - cb321 4mo ago
      I don't really disagree much with what you said. My favored PLang Nim (https://nim-lang.org/ https://nim-lang.org/ -- it has both `ref` and `ptr` styles of pointer, one auto-managed, one manually managed) even changed a while back it's `nim c --gc=x` command-line language to `nim c --mm=x`, and I was in favor of said change. However, it does inspire me to write.. The kernel of all this terminology confusion is under-exposure of industrial programmers to not just academic terminology, but also the very design space you mention (which has always been nicely covered by Jones' outstanding book). Just to take an example from the root of this thread: >widespread common usage of the term “garbage collected programming language” which specifically contrasts manual languages like C++ or Rust against garbage collected ones Boehm-Wiser conservative collection for C, among the most manual languages of all, pre-dates its very first ANSI 1989 standard. This underexposure itself is downstream of the kinds of oversimplifications/lies of marketing and in this particular case came from Java. The evolution I witnessed was roughly 1) linking Boehm with -lgc and deleting (or #define'ing away) all your `free()` calls is conservative - to be precise you need compiler aid and a lot of programmers are "not perfect==awful" personality types, 2) Sun Microsystems wants to leverage a lot of reliability issues with C code and become The Platform and spends gobs of money to win hearts & minds, partly succeeding, 3) part of its ad-warfare against the then WIntel hegemony and/or tutorials/introductory material for Junior Programmers (often the target of "be more reliable" material) plays fast & loose with GC terminology because marketing plays fast & loose structurally for fun but mostly profit, 4) because human language really does == language usage a la Quine, everyone in the industry re-defines what "GC" means to bind it to a programming language instead of to a specific run-time, 5) industry & academics use different language, confusion ensues and so here we are. This is not even the 100th time that either explicit or implicit forces of marketing have achieved confusion analogously to this. If you believe most people don't need much of what they spend on then confusion is arguably intrinsic to marketing of ideas/products. The highly misleading but suggestive metaphorical language used all over "AI" in both research and in product-lines is a more current case of this, leading anyone who knows much to have to qualify "not AGI" or other such junk just to have a conversation. So, what is my point? Basically just that the larger problem here will persist as long as there is money to be made/attention to be garnered by sowing confusion/having people talk past each other/think some product is more than it really is. I have no meta-strategy in my back pocket to block these successful confusions, but it does seem worth being aware of it.
- pron 4mo ago
  It's not about restricting the language. It's that practising programmers often don't know a subject well enough, so they use different words to make distinctions that don't matter as much as they think (see "transpile"). "Dynamically typed" is actually not that big of an offence (because the distinction is real, it's just that the terminology is a bit muddled), and the people in PL theory who are bothered by this (most notably one person) are considered pedants even among their colleagues. E.g. many practising programmers don't know that tracing moving collectors are used to avoid some of the high overheads associated with memory allocators (malloc/free), which are themselves big and complex beasts that make up substantial "runtimes" (another misused and misleading word).

by pron 4mo ago

gdwatson 4mo ago

This reminds me a bit of the way academics in programming language theory internalized the type-theoretic definition of the word “type” over and against the traditional programming definition. You sometimes see people who try to correct the term “dynamically typed language,” which makes perfect sense when types are data types, to “untyped” or “unityped,” which makes sense when types are mathematical constructs equivalent to proofs. The colloquial term is clear in context, and it draws its boundaries in useful places. If academia prefers other boundaries to simplify its formal definitions, that’s understandable. But the rest of us shouldn’t restrict our language in that way.

gf000 4mo ago
I think GC's definition is pretty clear cut. How is counting references to determine when a lifetime ends materially different from another way of doing the same thing? Like there is even a paper that shows that one is tracking liveness, while the other tracks "deadness" and they are literally going at the same thing from different ends. If anything, I often see a bias against tracing GCs from the people misusing the term, to "hype up" their choice of language that it must be better for not having (tracing) GC, when it usually just has ref counting which in many metrics is actually worse, given equal usage -- rust/cpp gets away from that because they only use it on a handful of objects, other lifetimes being driven by RAII, which is pretty much just compile-time decidable ref counting?
- hayley-patton 4mo ago
  > Like there is even a paper that shows that one is tracking liveness, while the other tracks "deadness" and they are literally going at the same thing from different ends. https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1035292.1028982 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1035292.1028982
- gdwatson 4mo ago
  I think a lot of people just want to be able to discuss different areas of the automatic memory management design space separately, and maintaining the distinction between reference counting and garbage collection (meaning tracing GCs) lets them do that. As for me personally, I consider refcounting and GC overlapping categories. I am perfectly willing to call CPython’s reference counting plus cycle collector a form of garbage collection, because it is transparent to the programmer. Every memory management technique has tradeoffs and pathological edge cases, but since you don’t have to consider them in the ordinary course of programming I’d say it counts. If you had to break cycles manually, or to annotate which references should be counted, I’d call that refcounting but not GC – as in the C++ stdlib.
  - cb321 4mo ago
    I don't really disagree much with what you said. My favored PLang Nim (https://nim-lang.org/ https://nim-lang.org/ -- it has both `ref` and `ptr` styles of pointer, one auto-managed, one manually managed) even changed a while back it's `nim c --gc=x` command-line language to `nim c --mm=x`, and I was in favor of said change. However, it does inspire me to write.. The kernel of all this terminology confusion is under-exposure of industrial programmers to not just academic terminology, but also the very design space you mention (which has always been nicely covered by Jones' outstanding book). Just to take an example from the root of this thread: >widespread common usage of the term “garbage collected programming language” which specifically contrasts manual languages like C++ or Rust against garbage collected ones Boehm-Wiser conservative collection for C, among the most manual languages of all, pre-dates its very first ANSI 1989 standard. This underexposure itself is downstream of the kinds of oversimplifications/lies of marketing and in this particular case came from Java. The evolution I witnessed was roughly 1) linking Boehm with -lgc and deleting (or #define'ing away) all your `free()` calls is conservative - to be precise you need compiler aid and a lot of programmers are "not perfect==awful" personality types, 2) Sun Microsystems wants to leverage a lot of reliability issues with C code and become The Platform and spends gobs of money to win hearts & minds, partly succeeding, 3) part of its ad-warfare against the then WIntel hegemony and/or tutorials/introductory material for Junior Programmers (often the target of "be more reliable" material) plays fast & loose with GC terminology because marketing plays fast & loose structurally for fun but mostly profit, 4) because human language really does == language usage a la Quine, everyone in the industry re-defines what "GC" means to bind it to a programming language instead of to a specific run-time, 5) industry & academics use different language, confusion ensues and so here we are. This is not even the 100th time that either explicit or implicit forces of marketing have achieved confusion analogously to this. If you believe most people don't need much of what they spend on then confusion is arguably intrinsic to marketing of ideas/products. The highly misleading but suggestive metaphorical language used all over "AI" in both research and in product-lines is a more current case of this, leading anyone who knows much to have to qualify "not AGI" or other such junk just to have a conversation. So, what is my point? Basically just that the larger problem here will persist as long as there is money to be made/attention to be garnered by sowing confusion/having people talk past each other/think some product is more than it really is. I have no meta-strategy in my back pocket to block these successful confusions, but it does seem worth being aware of it.
pron 4mo ago
It's not about restricting the language. It's that practising programmers often don't know a subject well enough, so they use different words to make distinctions that don't matter as much as they think (see "transpile"). "Dynamically typed" is actually not that big of an offence (because the distinction is real, it's just that the terminology is a bit muddled), and the people in PL theory who are bothered by this (most notably one person) are considered pedants even among their colleagues. E.g. many practising programmers don't know that tracing moving collectors are used to avoid some of the high overheads associated with memory allocators (malloc/free), which are themselves big and complex beasts that make up substantial "runtimes" (another misused and misleading word).