4 ms·

The path ahead in the next few years (at least for the UK) 1. Age gating + VPN ban under the guise of protecting children from social media 2. Few years pass,

by AJRF 4mo ago

The path ahead in the next few years (at least for the UK) 1. Age gating + VPN ban under the guise of protecting children from social media 2. Few years pass, Identity Passport gets ushered in under guise of convenience of not having to repeat those pesky age verification checks. 3. Utilities start to require ID Passport. Including signing up with an ISP. 4. Renting starts to require ID Passport. 5. Work requires ID Passport. 6. Well done, you built the torment nexus!

ajb 4mo ago
Renting and work already require ID in the UK. Every landlord and employer is supposed to take a copy of original documents proving the right to rent/work in the UK. Technically you can do that without handing the docs to the government, but there's less potential liability to do so via the Home Office website.
- AJRF 4mo ago
  You miss the point - they are stitching it all together in a way that deanonymize you to your ISP under the guise of save the kids and then convenience
  - akie 3mo ago
    This is a very libertarian and ultimately low-trust forum where most people seem to think the government is out to get you, but I have to say: what's so great about having complete online anonymity anyway? I mean, seriously. Real life is not anonymous and consequence free either, why should online life be? It's not as if there are no downsides. There are, and some of them are so severe that they are impacting the whole of society. People can impersonate to be 500 or 5000 or 500000 people from another country and all echo some detrimental or even treasonous sentiment, critically influencing and steering voters, which changes politics and election outcomes and thereby the trajectories of whole countries. I cannot understate how serious that is. If we can make sure that every real person can only have 1 social media account per platform, and if we can check that someone is an adult, and if (and only if) we can do that in a privacy preserving manner... then honestly, I don't see why I would be against that. I'm ok with being held accountable for what I do online. I want to pay that price to prevent the severe outside interference we've seen in elections and in our politics. You and many others might not be, but it seems like you've lost the argument.
    - bigjimmyjohnson 3mo ago
      Just off the top of my head, what if I want to use reddit mostly to talk about mundane things like local events in my city or technology and don't really care if that ties back to me, but I also want to ask about embarrassing health problems or just weird shit and I would rather not have that tied back to me? I should have no options without everyone in the world being able to easily find out about it? If some sites like Facebook want to be real-name only, that's fine. People can use Facebook for that if they choose. But don't ban alternatives for people who want alternatives.
      - akie 3mo ago
        Which alternative measures do you propose to counter the society destabilising effects I've described in the original comment? Because I believe there are none.
        bigjimmyjohnson 3mo ago
        People will go nuts even with their real names. People will lie even with their real names. See: Facebook. Doesn't stop shit. So don't ruin it for the rest of us. Even if you are not American, HN is very tied to American culture, so I assume you dislike either Trump or Biden (or both). Which one should be able to arrest people more easily for their online posts? https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg7pyjxjxrvo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg7pyjxjxrvo Are you a big fan of Peter Thiel? If not, why give him more power and money? https://www.openrightsgroup.org/press-releases/roblox-reddit-and-discord-users-compelled-to-use-biometric-id-system-backed-by-palantir-co-founder-peter-thiel/ https://www.openrightsgroup.org/press-releases/roblox-reddit... Cementing Trump and friends' power may be considered some form of stabilization, but it's not one that I'm a fan of.
        ImPostingOnHN 3mo ago
        I'm not convinced that the status quo needs changing. Can you make a case with statistics?
      - monssooon 3mo ago
  - ajb 3mo ago
    Do you want to help stop that, or do you just want to feel smarter than other people? If you happened to have seen my comments in other threads, you'd know I'm against all this. But telling people they are idiots isn't going to win them over. This is not just a criticism of your comment, it's widespread in these discussions. Opposing this requires: * Linking to specific harms, which the public can emotionally resonate with. For example, scanning billions of photos for suspicions of child abuse will result in false positives that cause innocent people's kids to be taken away. * Not seeming like an overheated conspiracy theorist. Feeling angry about this is legitimate, but it's not necessary to communicate in the same emotional register that you are feeling, even if it feels inauthentic not to. The public are saturated with people being publicly angry, much of which is purely performance. Deep concern may work better. * Have plausible reasons for why this is happening. Yes, a few individuals like Thiel want to create a digital Stasi, but this would still be happening without them. Mostly this is driven by companies that want to make money, and officials who have a bias towards centralised processes, and are tunnel-visioned with respect to some issue. And people who are genuinely concerned about kids and haven't been given another convincing solution. * Get facts straight. (Eg, rent/job IDs aren't a future threat. They are here)
    - AJRF 3mo ago
      And this is why we are where we are
    - ImPostingOnHN 3mo ago
      I'm not a big fan of the "my way is the right way to oppose things, your way of opposing it is wrong" routine. You can each make a difference in your own way and report back in a year who changed the world more. No need to alienate allies.
      - ajb 3mo ago
        I think we can already conclude that the current approach is failing. I'm suggesting reasons why I think that is the case. Of course, my diagnosis may be wrong. But it's implausible that doing what we've done during 20 years of erosion of privacy is going to suddenly turn things around. As for not alienating allies: if it's this easy to piss off people to agree with you, maybe it's also worth thinking about how to talk to those you want to win over.
  - selimthegrim 3mo ago
    Isn't this already the case in a lot of the Continent? I was just in CH and it seemed impossible to have anonymous Wi-Fi without a Swiss SMS or a airline boarding pass.
    - selimthegrim 3mo ago
      s/SMS/SIM
- NVHacker 3mo ago
  That did not stop the Government from pushing digital id in order to prevent illegal working, did it ?
HerbManic 4mo ago
Here in Australia we already have the first part of 1 then most of 3,4,5. We are almost there. And you thought our wildlife was the torment nexus.

by AJRF 4mo ago

ajb 4mo ago

Renting and work already require ID in the UK. Every landlord and employer is supposed to take a copy of original documents proving the right to rent/work in the UK. Technically you can do that without handing the docs to the government, but there's less potential liability to do so via the Home Office website.

AJRF 4mo ago
You miss the point - they are stitching it all together in a way that deanonymize you to your ISP under the guise of save the kids and then convenience
- akie 3mo ago
  This is a very libertarian and ultimately low-trust forum where most people seem to think the government is out to get you, but I have to say: what's so great about having complete online anonymity anyway? I mean, seriously. Real life is not anonymous and consequence free either, why should online life be? It's not as if there are no downsides. There are, and some of them are so severe that they are impacting the whole of society. People can impersonate to be 500 or 5000 or 500000 people from another country and all echo some detrimental or even treasonous sentiment, critically influencing and steering voters, which changes politics and election outcomes and thereby the trajectories of whole countries. I cannot understate how serious that is. If we can make sure that every real person can only have 1 social media account per platform, and if we can check that someone is an adult, and if (and only if) we can do that in a privacy preserving manner... then honestly, I don't see why I would be against that. I'm ok with being held accountable for what I do online. I want to pay that price to prevent the severe outside interference we've seen in elections and in our politics. You and many others might not be, but it seems like you've lost the argument.
  - bigjimmyjohnson 3mo ago
    Just off the top of my head, what if I want to use reddit mostly to talk about mundane things like local events in my city or technology and don't really care if that ties back to me, but I also want to ask about embarrassing health problems or just weird shit and I would rather not have that tied back to me? I should have no options without everyone in the world being able to easily find out about it? If some sites like Facebook want to be real-name only, that's fine. People can use Facebook for that if they choose. But don't ban alternatives for people who want alternatives.
    - akie 3mo ago
      Which alternative measures do you propose to counter the society destabilising effects I've described in the original comment? Because I believe there are none.
      - bigjimmyjohnson 3mo ago
        People will go nuts even with their real names. People will lie even with their real names. See: Facebook. Doesn't stop shit. So don't ruin it for the rest of us. Even if you are not American, HN is very tied to American culture, so I assume you dislike either Trump or Biden (or both). Which one should be able to arrest people more easily for their online posts? https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg7pyjxjxrvo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg7pyjxjxrvo Are you a big fan of Peter Thiel? If not, why give him more power and money? https://www.openrightsgroup.org/press-releases/roblox-reddit-and-discord-users-compelled-to-use-biometric-id-system-backed-by-palantir-co-founder-peter-thiel/ https://www.openrightsgroup.org/press-releases/roblox-reddit... Cementing Trump and friends' power may be considered some form of stabilization, but it's not one that I'm a fan of.
      - ImPostingOnHN 3mo ago
        I'm not convinced that the status quo needs changing. Can you make a case with statistics?
    - monssooon 3mo ago
- ajb 3mo ago
  Do you want to help stop that, or do you just want to feel smarter than other people? If you happened to have seen my comments in other threads, you'd know I'm against all this. But telling people they are idiots isn't going to win them over. This is not just a criticism of your comment, it's widespread in these discussions. Opposing this requires: * Linking to specific harms, which the public can emotionally resonate with. For example, scanning billions of photos for suspicions of child abuse will result in false positives that cause innocent people's kids to be taken away. * Not seeming like an overheated conspiracy theorist. Feeling angry about this is legitimate, but it's not necessary to communicate in the same emotional register that you are feeling, even if it feels inauthentic not to. The public are saturated with people being publicly angry, much of which is purely performance. Deep concern may work better. * Have plausible reasons for why this is happening. Yes, a few individuals like Thiel want to create a digital Stasi, but this would still be happening without them. Mostly this is driven by companies that want to make money, and officials who have a bias towards centralised processes, and are tunnel-visioned with respect to some issue. And people who are genuinely concerned about kids and haven't been given another convincing solution. * Get facts straight. (Eg, rent/job IDs aren't a future threat. They are here)
  - AJRF 3mo ago
    And this is why we are where we are
  - ImPostingOnHN 3mo ago
    I'm not a big fan of the "my way is the right way to oppose things, your way of opposing it is wrong" routine. You can each make a difference in your own way and report back in a year who changed the world more. No need to alienate allies.
    - ajb 3mo ago
      I think we can already conclude that the current approach is failing. I'm suggesting reasons why I think that is the case. Of course, my diagnosis may be wrong. But it's implausible that doing what we've done during 20 years of erosion of privacy is going to suddenly turn things around. As for not alienating allies: if it's this easy to piss off people to agree with you, maybe it's also worth thinking about how to talk to those you want to win over.
- selimthegrim 3mo ago
  Isn't this already the case in a lot of the Continent? I was just in CH and it seemed impossible to have anonymous Wi-Fi without a Swiss SMS or a airline boarding pass.
  - selimthegrim 3mo ago
    s/SMS/SIM
NVHacker 3mo ago
That did not stop the Government from pushing digital id in order to prevent illegal working, did it ?

HerbManic 4mo ago

Here in Australia we already have the first part of 1 then most of 3,4,5. We are almost there. And you thought our wildlife was the torment nexus.