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sigh The 'job security' part is the one that worries me the most in stories like this. I'm not alone. I need to support a family. While I'd love to sink time (

sigh The 'job security' part is the one that worries me the most in stories like this. I'm not alone. I need to support a family. While I'd love to sink time (and money, to a degree) in a company, the risks turn me off to even apply. It seems that the general consensus is that you need a really good savings account not just for starting your own business, but for joining a new startup as well. I _know_ that I'll find a job around here again. That's not a problem. The time frame is. Let's assume I can (ignoring all legal issues for a second) join a startup, remote, from this small town in Germany. Wherever they are, they probably can cut me out quite easily (even here, if the headcount is low enough), quickly. The companies that I'd turn to for safety are slooooooow. So you risk being out on the streets waiting for bigger, safer companies to return your calls and get back to you. Which might, which WILL happen if you're a decent programmer/engineer/whateverpatiowouldsuggestmewritinghere. But .. in time? Fast enough to not worry about your family? I'm a chicken here. I wouldn't bet on that.

rburhum 14y ago
When you have a family, I understand why you would be extra conservative. Admittedly, in the Bay Area it is a different environment. Engineers get hired by VC-backed startups at lighting speed. Try this: look at a company that just funding in Crunchbase, shoot them your resume, and see how fast they get back at you. You will be surprised.
- darklajid 14y ago
  Egineers .. with family? I don't quite believe that people with a family are taking a lot of risks, just because it's "the valley". Can you confirm that this is indeed the case, or are we degrading into the age debate (a.k.a. "What? You have kids already, Grandpa?")? Shooting anyone in the bay area a resume wouldn't make sense. While I said that I'm interested in startups, I also clearly indicated that I'm (for now?) risk averse. And ignoring that, I'd be _mightily_ surprised if any startup would say "Yeah, cool. Join us and just work from Germany". Relocation to the US? That's several levels more insane, given my initial post. Even if I'd be interested to live or travel there (nope!) that is making the situation I described worse. Wasting their and my time by sending a resume just to see how fast they get back seems .. evil. I cannot accept. They lose time. Why would I do that?
  - svachalek 14y ago
    You won't see many engineers with kids at a company that has $100k in angel funding and 6 likes on Facebook, but many VC-backed startups can afford to give their employees weekends and reasonably competitive salaries.
    - darklajid 14y ago
      Cool! But is that actually answering my post? I was giving an example for reasons that might lead to the 'is the job secure' discussions, as pointed out in the article. Your post isn't related. Weekends and salaries were not part of the discussion before your post. Job security (a.k.a. "Sorry, Jim. We need to let you go") was. So I don't quite get it. If you wanted to reemphasize that it makes no sense to apply to a tiny startup in a situation like mine: Okay, I didn't need that support, but I'm happy you're agreeing. If you wanted to tell me that it's not that bad, since - hey - many startups can 'give their employees weekends' (did you think before writing that? Are you really convinced that 'giving' is involved here?) and offer competitive salaries (which might be the case. It just totally, utterly ignores the point I was trying to make: Job security matters, financially. I didn't even start talking about the emotional level here: Lack of job security will make your life more miserable (unless you've got enough FU money on the bank)).
svachalek 14y ago
In Germany perhaps this strange beast called "job security" can still be found in the wild. In the US there is no such thing outside of government work, and at a startup the idea is laughable. "Career security" is what you want to think about, making sure you are always up to date and desirable. And also, building up a savings account no matter how difficult that may seem.
- darklajid 14y ago
  That's a very interesting and good thought. Maybe my whole point of view is skewed: I'm reasonably safe in my job even without a savings account (got none. Is that a bad idea? Yeah, probably. But that's a different point). That said, Germany isn't alone in the rules I'd take as granted. What I rely on here is just a decent time between being let go and being without salary. I don't claim to have a lot of experience here, but I know that this exists in various other EU countries and was told that this is common in IL as well, for example. If you want to fire me, you still need to pay me for a ~reasonable~ amount of time (and I need to work, of course). I'll try to find another job during that time. Startups seem to have a tendency to go down in flames (what law could order a company that has no money to pay salaries?) or are exempt of a lot of laws that make me feel safe (as I said, here in Germany the law makes it far easier to drop people while you're below a certain, single digit(?) head count). I'm ignoring your 'build up savings' suggestions. It's a good one. I agree. And if I'll ever manage to do that, I'll either keep it for my family or .. for my own startup (if that might be realistic). It still wouldn't be a cushion to join a startup myself. The point of the OP of this thread seemed to be that you have to find a ratio between decent pay and nice equity. I understand. I agree. I just think that this totally ignores the cost of searching for another job in this silly "I pay you X. That means that you make X * 12 / year. Let's compare that to the shares now, with various outcomes in the list" kind of posts. That's ignoring a big issue for the guy signing the contract. Saying 'Yeah, if it goes down you lost $marketValue - $startupSalary' is just .. well .. stupid. Unless you _know_ that there's an instant job opportunity for the guy at the end. No? Nothing nearby / close to family? Nothing that allows enough free time or fits the _basic_ interests of the guy that was let go? Ah well, that's what a savings account is for, right? Disclaimer: No personal grudges here, I just don't think that these discussions are .. sensible. In general. Most of the time these arguments are lead from the mind of a 23 year old single with a lot of self esteem and confidence. I handed my membership card in, a couple of years ago. It's nice on this side of the fence, but the perspective really changes a lot.

rburhum 14y ago

When you have a family, I understand why you would be extra conservative. Admittedly, in the Bay Area it is a different environment. Engineers get hired by VC-backed startups at lighting speed. Try this: look at a company that just funding in Crunchbase, shoot them your resume, and see how fast they get back at you. You will be surprised.

darklajid 14y ago
Egineers .. with family? I don't quite believe that people with a family are taking a lot of risks, just because it's "the valley". Can you confirm that this is indeed the case, or are we degrading into the age debate (a.k.a. "What? You have kids already, Grandpa?")? Shooting anyone in the bay area a resume wouldn't make sense. While I said that I'm interested in startups, I also clearly indicated that I'm (for now?) risk averse. And ignoring that, I'd be _mightily_ surprised if any startup would say "Yeah, cool. Join us and just work from Germany". Relocation to the US? That's several levels more insane, given my initial post. Even if I'd be interested to live or travel there (nope!) that is making the situation I described worse. Wasting their and my time by sending a resume just to see how fast they get back seems .. evil. I cannot accept. They lose time. Why would I do that?
- svachalek 14y ago
  You won't see many engineers with kids at a company that has $100k in angel funding and 6 likes on Facebook, but many VC-backed startups can afford to give their employees weekends and reasonably competitive salaries.
  - darklajid 14y ago
    Cool! But is that actually answering my post? I was giving an example for reasons that might lead to the 'is the job secure' discussions, as pointed out in the article. Your post isn't related. Weekends and salaries were not part of the discussion before your post. Job security (a.k.a. "Sorry, Jim. We need to let you go") was. So I don't quite get it. If you wanted to reemphasize that it makes no sense to apply to a tiny startup in a situation like mine: Okay, I didn't need that support, but I'm happy you're agreeing. If you wanted to tell me that it's not that bad, since - hey - many startups can 'give their employees weekends' (did you think before writing that? Are you really convinced that 'giving' is involved here?) and offer competitive salaries (which might be the case. It just totally, utterly ignores the point I was trying to make: Job security matters, financially. I didn't even start talking about the emotional level here: Lack of job security will make your life more miserable (unless you've got enough FU money on the bank)).

svachalek 14y ago

In Germany perhaps this strange beast called "job security" can still be found in the wild. In the US there is no such thing outside of government work, and at a startup the idea is laughable. "Career security" is what you want to think about, making sure you are always up to date and desirable. And also, building up a savings account no matter how difficult that may seem.

darklajid 14y ago
That's a very interesting and good thought. Maybe my whole point of view is skewed: I'm reasonably safe in my job even without a savings account (got none. Is that a bad idea? Yeah, probably. But that's a different point). That said, Germany isn't alone in the rules I'd take as granted. What I rely on here is just a decent time between being let go and being without salary. I don't claim to have a lot of experience here, but I know that this exists in various other EU countries and was told that this is common in IL as well, for example. If you want to fire me, you still need to pay me for a ~reasonable~ amount of time (and I need to work, of course). I'll try to find another job during that time. Startups seem to have a tendency to go down in flames (what law could order a company that has no money to pay salaries?) or are exempt of a lot of laws that make me feel safe (as I said, here in Germany the law makes it far easier to drop people while you're below a certain, single digit(?) head count). I'm ignoring your 'build up savings' suggestions. It's a good one. I agree. And if I'll ever manage to do that, I'll either keep it for my family or .. for my own startup (if that might be realistic). It still wouldn't be a cushion to join a startup myself. The point of the OP of this thread seemed to be that you have to find a ratio between decent pay and nice equity. I understand. I agree. I just think that this totally ignores the cost of searching for another job in this silly "I pay you X. That means that you make X * 12 / year. Let's compare that to the shares now, with various outcomes in the list" kind of posts. That's ignoring a big issue for the guy signing the contract. Saying 'Yeah, if it goes down you lost $marketValue - $startupSalary' is just .. well .. stupid. Unless you _know_ that there's an instant job opportunity for the guy at the end. No? Nothing nearby / close to family? Nothing that allows enough free time or fits the _basic_ interests of the guy that was let go? Ah well, that's what a savings account is for, right? Disclaimer: No personal grudges here, I just don't think that these discussions are .. sensible. In general. Most of the time these arguments are lead from the mind of a 23 year old single with a lot of self esteem and confidence. I handed my membership card in, a couple of years ago. It's nice on this side of the fence, but the perspective really changes a lot.