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OP here. Interestingly enough, my conversations with Paypal became more and more surreal and I felt more and more powerless with every one in the end. I had a t

OP here. Interestingly enough, my conversations with Paypal became more and more surreal and I felt more and more powerless with every one in the end. I had a trail of information and there was evidence of multiple fraud, but I never felt as powerless as I did after my phone calls with Paypal. I am in contact with the police captain in the small town where the item was shipped, but I have very little faith in their ability to recover it. I will file a local police report as well and try to appeal with paypal. Meanwhile i want everyone to be aware that the so-called Seller Protection is totally worthless, since thats how Paypal chooses to pursue a legit fraud case.

DannyBee 14y ago
If you really want the money back, sue the guy. File a miscellaneous action in Ohio and then use subpoenas to acquire his real address/billing info. Contact the state AG and local federal AG's as well, just for kicks. Note that if you go to file a small claims action, you will actually have to be present in Ohio. They require in-personam jurisdiction. (You do have the option of filing in local federal district court against the person, but this is very expensive)
- jellicle 14y ago
  Poster can file suit in his local small claims court, and then enforce the judgement in Ohio afterwards. No need to travel to Ohio to file the suit.
- tb303 14y ago
  You can't sue a fake identity
  - DannyBee 14y ago
    Actually, you can (John Doe lawsuits). Besides that, most of these scams are not that sophisticated as you see in spy movies. You subpoena a few folks, and you get the identity. It usually turns out to be a 16 year old, but you still get it.
    - CamperBob2 14y ago
      Serving a subpoena to "General Delivery" is problematic at best.
      - DannyBee 14y ago
        Sigh. He paid through paypal, remember. There is apparently also a credit card provider, and the credit card provider claims to have handled the dispute. Which means they either heard from this guy, or ... Again, it's just not this complicated. It's expensive and time consuming, but rarely complicated.
        tb303 14y ago
        Sigh or not, you are sighing to someone who already went through this (me) and was told by the Las Vegas Police that it was a dead end. The buyer used a fake name and hijacked someone else's paypal account (or claimed such had happened to him). So, you are right on two out of three counts: it was expensive, time consuming, and complicated =D I wish it had been easier, trust me!
      - facorreia 14y ago
        There is a credit card involved.
  - incomethax 14y ago
    Presumably the OP has an address where he sent his iPhone. Not sure as IANAL, but he theoretically could sue a Doe at a given address and subpoena for an identity.
    - prodigal_erik 14y ago
      Don't scammers typically use some innocent person's address and pick up the shipment from their doorstep while they're at work?
    - URSpider94 14y ago
      The scammer had it sent General Delivery. For those not familiar with the term (it's not used commonly these days), it's possible to have something shipped General Delivery to any post office, then walk in and pick it up. See https://www.usps.com/manage/forward-mail.htm https://www.usps.com/manage/forward-mail.htm for more info. This seems like one of those arcane system hacks that's ripe for abuse. He/she presumably had to show some ID and sign something to get the package, but I'm betting that the ID was fake.
      - DannyBee 14y ago
        You think general delivery is also his credit card billing address? Do you think he walks in with different fake ids every time he does this? Do you think he also uses different credit cards with paypal? Or do you picture him as a nomad, like the old guy from Kung Fu: The Legend Continues, traveling the country collecting fake ids, credit cards, and iphones? If he is super-master-ninja and all else failed, do you think it would be more or less expensive than court to honey pot him, ship him a box of rocks (or something that takes continual pictures and uploads it instantly) in a very bright pink package, fly super-economy to the place he is supposed to pick it up, and then sit in the post office a few days waiting to see your package picked up, and take pictures of the guy and his car plates? Unless of course, he only uses public transportation to cover his tracks (or steals random cars every time he needs to travel to the post office!), and wears facial disguises, sunglasses, and a hat to make sure no camera gets a good look at him. Never the same motel room twice, always paying cash, blah blah blah. Reality: It's actually very hard to hide when your fraud requires picking up physical items at a known location. It's easier to hide remotely, but not so much otherwise. Even remotely, i'd put 20 bucks down that given only the info the seller has about the guy, 4chan or reddit could find in 2 days or less.
- rorrr 14y ago
  Sue Paypal. It's an obvious scam, and they are, for some strange reason, ruling in favor of the scammer. Sue them for your money, for the time you spent dealing with them. Check out small claims court limits in your state, and sue them for the maximum. I bet you will win with all the documentation you have.
  - grecy 14y ago
    But didn't he agree to all this in the terms and conditions?
    - rorrr 14y ago
      ToS are not always enforceable. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120907/15424120313/barnes-nobles-web-terms-service-not-enforceable-without-evidence-that-they-were-seen.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120907/15424120313/barne... http://www.mashedreport.com/2010/07/29/website-terms-of-service-_m_000664.php http://www.mashedreport.com/2010/07/29/website-terms-of-serv... https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090508/0212134792.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090508/0212134792.shtml Though there have been cases where ToS were enforced.
  - coopdog 14y ago
    No idea if you should sue or not, but surely in this case it would be the credit card company who didn't investigate the chargeback who is the culprit, Paypal is somewhat beholden to their investigation. By just approving any chargeback and not doing any investigations to appeals they are abusing the system
    - kozmikyak 14y ago
      You're assuming that Paypal didn't purposely withhold any provided proof of scam, to avoid further action on this issue. That appears to be exactly what Paypal did.
    - codenerdz 14y ago
      Unfortunately Paypal refused to provide the credit card company info in this case
cmwelsh 14y ago
Has PayPal gotten their money back from you yet?
- codenerdz 14y ago
  Not yet, but im risking it big time with collections.
  - WiseWeasel 14y ago
    Pretty sure that's a losing battle for you. If you can get the money back somehow later, then all the better, but I'd settle with PayPal for now. Ask for a money order next time, cashing it before sending the item.
tb303 14y ago
That is exactly what happened with me. The way they hide behind poor communication and offshore CS reps is amazing. I'd receive answers to my emails that had nothing to do with the content itself, recommendations to check a FAQ in response to three hours of phone calls with detailed information about the incident, etc. I'm happy you are publicizing this, but the thing is, this is happening everywhere, to all kinds of people, and eBay/PayPal are not doing anything about it. After striking out with appeals and the Better Business Bureau, I believe the only way forward is to pressure the FTC through our government representatives.
- drharris 14y ago
  > I believe the only way forward is to pressure the FTC through our government representatives. +1, this. Please, please file a complaint about Paypal/Ebay with the FTC about this. Enough complaining, and they will be forced to change or leave.
shiftpgdn 14y ago
Have you tried contacting the PostMaster for that city? They should be able to assist you in finding the owner of the P.O. Box. From there you can start the motions for filing charges or a lawsuit.
- URSpider94 14y ago
  It's not a PO Box, it's General Delivery (https://www.usps.com/manage/forward-mail.htm https://www.usps.com/manage/forward-mail.htm). There is no owner, but you may be able to get the info they recorded when the person showed up (undoubtedly fake).
  - gknoy 14y ago
    Wouldn't doing something like that (providing fake ID at pickup) be considered Mail Fraud? I seem to recall mail fraud investigations having really big teeth.
    - URSpider94 14y ago
      IANAL (I've said that a lot in this thread), but I believe so. Actually, I think it may be mail fraud in any regard, if he's using the US Mail to take delivery of his booty and you can show that he had prior intent to commit this scam (which is why he didn't have the packages shipped to his home address). So, maybe the right place to start is with the Postal Inspector, especially since this guy seems like a repeat offender with the same MO.
gacba 14y ago
FYI--what you describe is not limited to eBay. I sell software through PayPal and I have been defrauded by someone who downloaded, marked it as "Significantly not as described". Once they did that, my money was pulled. I proved the buyer still had my software installed on their site, PayPal refunded my money, the buyer contacted their credit card, PayPal pulled the money again. PayPal can be gamed in many different ways, but the credit card is the buyer's shield that even PayPal can't defend against. :(
PagingCraig 14y ago
Unfortunately it's been a while since sellers have been protected on Ebay. A few years in fact. Live and learn.

DannyBee 14y ago

If you really want the money back, sue the guy. File a miscellaneous action in Ohio and then use subpoenas to acquire his real address/billing info. Contact the state AG and local federal AG's as well, just for kicks. Note that if you go to file a small claims action, you will actually have to be present in Ohio. They require in-personam jurisdiction. (You do have the option of filing in local federal district court against the person, but this is very expensive)

jellicle 14y ago
Poster can file suit in his local small claims court, and then enforce the judgement in Ohio afterwards. No need to travel to Ohio to file the suit.
tb303 14y ago
You can't sue a fake identity
- DannyBee 14y ago
  Actually, you can (John Doe lawsuits). Besides that, most of these scams are not that sophisticated as you see in spy movies. You subpoena a few folks, and you get the identity. It usually turns out to be a 16 year old, but you still get it.
  - CamperBob2 14y ago
    Serving a subpoena to "General Delivery" is problematic at best.
    - DannyBee 14y ago
      Sigh. He paid through paypal, remember. There is apparently also a credit card provider, and the credit card provider claims to have handled the dispute. Which means they either heard from this guy, or ... Again, it's just not this complicated. It's expensive and time consuming, but rarely complicated.
      - tb303 14y ago
        Sigh or not, you are sighing to someone who already went through this (me) and was told by the Las Vegas Police that it was a dead end. The buyer used a fake name and hijacked someone else's paypal account (or claimed such had happened to him). So, you are right on two out of three counts: it was expensive, time consuming, and complicated =D I wish it had been easier, trust me!
    - facorreia 14y ago
      There is a credit card involved.
- incomethax 14y ago
  Presumably the OP has an address where he sent his iPhone. Not sure as IANAL, but he theoretically could sue a Doe at a given address and subpoena for an identity.
  - prodigal_erik 14y ago
    Don't scammers typically use some innocent person's address and pick up the shipment from their doorstep while they're at work?
  - URSpider94 14y ago
    The scammer had it sent General Delivery. For those not familiar with the term (it's not used commonly these days), it's possible to have something shipped General Delivery to any post office, then walk in and pick it up. See https://www.usps.com/manage/forward-mail.htm https://www.usps.com/manage/forward-mail.htm for more info. This seems like one of those arcane system hacks that's ripe for abuse. He/she presumably had to show some ID and sign something to get the package, but I'm betting that the ID was fake.
    - DannyBee 14y ago
      You think general delivery is also his credit card billing address? Do you think he walks in with different fake ids every time he does this? Do you think he also uses different credit cards with paypal? Or do you picture him as a nomad, like the old guy from Kung Fu: The Legend Continues, traveling the country collecting fake ids, credit cards, and iphones? If he is super-master-ninja and all else failed, do you think it would be more or less expensive than court to honey pot him, ship him a box of rocks (or something that takes continual pictures and uploads it instantly) in a very bright pink package, fly super-economy to the place he is supposed to pick it up, and then sit in the post office a few days waiting to see your package picked up, and take pictures of the guy and his car plates? Unless of course, he only uses public transportation to cover his tracks (or steals random cars every time he needs to travel to the post office!), and wears facial disguises, sunglasses, and a hat to make sure no camera gets a good look at him. Never the same motel room twice, always paying cash, blah blah blah. Reality: It's actually very hard to hide when your fraud requires picking up physical items at a known location. It's easier to hide remotely, but not so much otherwise. Even remotely, i'd put 20 bucks down that given only the info the seller has about the guy, 4chan or reddit could find in 2 days or less.
rorrr 14y ago
Sue Paypal. It's an obvious scam, and they are, for some strange reason, ruling in favor of the scammer. Sue them for your money, for the time you spent dealing with them. Check out small claims court limits in your state, and sue them for the maximum. I bet you will win with all the documentation you have.
- grecy 14y ago
  But didn't he agree to all this in the terms and conditions?
  - rorrr 14y ago
    ToS are not always enforceable. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120907/15424120313/barnes-nobles-web-terms-service-not-enforceable-without-evidence-that-they-were-seen.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120907/15424120313/barne... http://www.mashedreport.com/2010/07/29/website-terms-of-service-_m_000664.php http://www.mashedreport.com/2010/07/29/website-terms-of-serv... https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090508/0212134792.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090508/0212134792.shtml Though there have been cases where ToS were enforced.
- coopdog 14y ago
  No idea if you should sue or not, but surely in this case it would be the credit card company who didn't investigate the chargeback who is the culprit, Paypal is somewhat beholden to their investigation. By just approving any chargeback and not doing any investigations to appeals they are abusing the system
  - kozmikyak 14y ago
    You're assuming that Paypal didn't purposely withhold any provided proof of scam, to avoid further action on this issue. That appears to be exactly what Paypal did.
  - codenerdz 14y ago
    Unfortunately Paypal refused to provide the credit card company info in this case

cmwelsh 14y ago

Has PayPal gotten their money back from you yet?

codenerdz 14y ago
Not yet, but im risking it big time with collections.
- WiseWeasel 14y ago
  Pretty sure that's a losing battle for you. If you can get the money back somehow later, then all the better, but I'd settle with PayPal for now. Ask for a money order next time, cashing it before sending the item.

tb303 14y ago

That is exactly what happened with me. The way they hide behind poor communication and offshore CS reps is amazing. I'd receive answers to my emails that had nothing to do with the content itself, recommendations to check a FAQ in response to three hours of phone calls with detailed information about the incident, etc. I'm happy you are publicizing this, but the thing is, this is happening everywhere, to all kinds of people, and eBay/PayPal are not doing anything about it. After striking out with appeals and the Better Business Bureau, I believe the only way forward is to pressure the FTC through our government representatives.

drharris 14y ago
> I believe the only way forward is to pressure the FTC through our government representatives. +1, this. Please, please file a complaint about Paypal/Ebay with the FTC about this. Enough complaining, and they will be forced to change or leave.

shiftpgdn 14y ago

Have you tried contacting the PostMaster for that city? They should be able to assist you in finding the owner of the P.O. Box. From there you can start the motions for filing charges or a lawsuit.

URSpider94 14y ago
It's not a PO Box, it's General Delivery (https://www.usps.com/manage/forward-mail.htm https://www.usps.com/manage/forward-mail.htm). There is no owner, but you may be able to get the info they recorded when the person showed up (undoubtedly fake).
- gknoy 14y ago
  Wouldn't doing something like that (providing fake ID at pickup) be considered Mail Fraud? I seem to recall mail fraud investigations having really big teeth.
  - URSpider94 14y ago
    IANAL (I've said that a lot in this thread), but I believe so. Actually, I think it may be mail fraud in any regard, if he's using the US Mail to take delivery of his booty and you can show that he had prior intent to commit this scam (which is why he didn't have the packages shipped to his home address). So, maybe the right place to start is with the Postal Inspector, especially since this guy seems like a repeat offender with the same MO.

gacba 14y ago

FYI--what you describe is not limited to eBay. I sell software through PayPal and I have been defrauded by someone who downloaded, marked it as "Significantly not as described". Once they did that, my money was pulled. I proved the buyer still had my software installed on their site, PayPal refunded my money, the buyer contacted their credit card, PayPal pulled the money again. PayPal can be gamed in many different ways, but the credit card is the buyer's shield that even PayPal can't defend against. :(

PagingCraig 14y ago

Unfortunately it's been a while since sellers have been protected on Ebay. A few years in fact. Live and learn.