3 ms·

I wonder why workers in Western Europe are so protected.

mytailorisrich 3mo ago
The fact that unions played a big role in the past does not imply that they are as important now because of the changes in legal protection, types of jobs, and society.
- 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 3mo ago
  If you believe the legal protections in place as a direct result of the labour movement (of which Unions are just one part) will remain in place in the face of constant well funded opposition by Capital then I have a case study for you in the UK, we call them Zero Hours Contracts.
  - iamacyborg 3mo ago
    Another UK example, you effectively have very limited rights until you’ve worked for a company for 2 years. Before then they can fire you for any reason they care to.
    - arethuza 3mo ago
      I think that is changing though: https://www.business.gov.uk/campaign/employment-changes/ https://www.business.gov.uk/campaign/employment-changes/
      - iamacyborg 3mo ago
        who knows what's going to happens with yet another leadership change though.
  - mytailorisrich 3mo ago
    Zero hours contracts were never banned in the UK and in fact have been restricted over the years and debate is still ongoing on whether to ban them altogether. We have diverged significantly from my original point...
- tovej 3mo ago
  Those legal protections are easily eroded without unions. Just look at Finland. Here, the current government first made it illegal for unions to strike when the government takes action to weaken employment law, and then they significantly weakened employment law. The only protection left is collective bargaining agreements, which can still uphold some of the old legal protections through contract law. This was also only possible after decades of work by industry lobby groups to significantly weaken unions by targeting them with tax code changes, splitting up unemployment funds from unions (with the employers then founding their own unemployment fund, so that union membership is drained). Unions are the only defense that workers have. If there are no unions, the employer can have their pick among desperate job seekers, and give them the lowest wage they can live on.
  - mytailorisrich 3mo ago
    > Those legal protections are easily eroded without unions. That's very clearly not true based on the situation in Western Europe, in fact legal rights tend to keep increasing even when union membership is decreasing (e.g. UK, France). As said, jobs and society as a whole have evolved and noone can be elected in government by promising to take away important protections, what they can be elected on is promising to curb union power but that the unions' fault when they abuse striking action. My understanding is that workers are extremely well protected in Finland and what's happened is only some restrictions on political and solidarity strikes. Edit: Unions are not the only defense that workers have. We have democracy with all sides represented and nowadays (in Europe at least) more is done through elections than through unions. That's why I said that society had changed compared to the early days of the labour movement.
    - tovej 3mo ago
      I just gave you an example. How can you say it is "very clearly not true". You would have to somehow disprove the reality of what has already happened in order to make that statement
      - tialaramex 3mo ago

The fact that unions played a big role in the past does not imply that they are as important now because of the changes in legal protection, types of jobs, and society.

6LLvveMx2koXfwn 3mo ago
If you believe the legal protections in place as a direct result of the labour movement (of which Unions are just one part) will remain in place in the face of constant well funded opposition by Capital then I have a case study for you in the UK, we call them Zero Hours Contracts.
- iamacyborg 3mo ago
  Another UK example, you effectively have very limited rights until you’ve worked for a company for 2 years. Before then they can fire you for any reason they care to.
  - arethuza 3mo ago
    I think that is changing though: https://www.business.gov.uk/campaign/employment-changes/ https://www.business.gov.uk/campaign/employment-changes/
    - iamacyborg 3mo ago
      who knows what's going to happens with yet another leadership change though.
- mytailorisrich 3mo ago
  Zero hours contracts were never banned in the UK and in fact have been restricted over the years and debate is still ongoing on whether to ban them altogether. We have diverged significantly from my original point...
tovej 3mo ago
Those legal protections are easily eroded without unions. Just look at Finland. Here, the current government first made it illegal for unions to strike when the government takes action to weaken employment law, and then they significantly weakened employment law. The only protection left is collective bargaining agreements, which can still uphold some of the old legal protections through contract law. This was also only possible after decades of work by industry lobby groups to significantly weaken unions by targeting them with tax code changes, splitting up unemployment funds from unions (with the employers then founding their own unemployment fund, so that union membership is drained). Unions are the only defense that workers have. If there are no unions, the employer can have their pick among desperate job seekers, and give them the lowest wage they can live on.
- mytailorisrich 3mo ago
  > Those legal protections are easily eroded without unions. That's very clearly not true based on the situation in Western Europe, in fact legal rights tend to keep increasing even when union membership is decreasing (e.g. UK, France). As said, jobs and society as a whole have evolved and noone can be elected in government by promising to take away important protections, what they can be elected on is promising to curb union power but that the unions' fault when they abuse striking action. My understanding is that workers are extremely well protected in Finland and what's happened is only some restrictions on political and solidarity strikes. Edit: Unions are not the only defense that workers have. We have democracy with all sides represented and nowadays (in Europe at least) more is done through elections than through unions. That's why I said that society had changed compared to the early days of the labour movement.
  - tovej 3mo ago
    I just gave you an example. How can you say it is "very clearly not true". You would have to somehow disprove the reality of what has already happened in order to make that statement
    - tialaramex 3mo ago