5 ms·

> Whether if it is true or not If it was just "that easy" then I doubt only "Chinese models" would be doing it and we'd already be packed with competition. Di

by re-thc 4mo ago

> Whether if it is true or not If it was just "that easy" then I doubt only "Chinese models" would be doing it and we'd already be packed with competition. Distilling might be a thing but it isn't a free win.

skeledrew 4mo ago
Only China really has the resources (multiple labs invested in the space), culture (Asians are generally collectively-inclined, so sharing is in their core) and political bent (there will be no diplomatic repercussions) to put up a fight.
- re-thc 4mo ago
  > Only China really has the resources (multiple labs invested in the space) That's not the point. Why is it a country thing? There are plenty of non-China startups in this space having resources at that scale. The "China" has resources is some "Western media narrative" speak. So Meta should have won a long time ago? Or xAI? > culture (Asians are generally collectively-inclined, so sharing is in their core) Just stereotype it? So we've gone from China -> "Asian"? Then where is your Korean or Japanese model etc? And somehow you know they're sharing. > political bent (there will be no diplomatic repercussions) to put up a fight More inferring from "Western media news"? Where's the reality? The media hyped up Gemini / Google TPU free-win last year. How did that go?
  - skeledrew 4mo ago
    > Why is it a country thing? Because the China vs US geopolitical situation is a thing. Meta is a social media company, not an AI company, and they direct their focus as such. xAI just never got serious traction so now they're selling their compute. Also if a US company were caught distilling, I think Anthropic could actually take them to court, and I'd guess they don't want that kind of PR. > Just stereotype it? Is China not Asian? Are Asians not generally collective/cooperative, as opposed to individualistic/competitive? The "and" that joined those 3 items is very important: it means you can't pull them apart and address them independently as they each contribute to the context. I'm not too sure about Korea, but in a way Japan is a US colony in all but name. Both are very much politically intertwined with the West (along with RoC/Taiwan), which means nothing major that may be against US interest happens. The reality is that China and the US are essentially in a trade war, where the latter is trying its best to keep the former in the Dark Ages, because "national security", but the former is refusing to take it lying down and continues to make progress regardless[0], because they have the resources and will. [0] https://thenextweb.com/news/china-lineshine-supercomputer-top500-no-us-chips https://thenextweb.com/news/china-lineshine-supercomputer-to...
    - re-thc 4mo ago
      > Because the China vs US geopolitical situation is a thing. By the media? It's easy to point fingers at a blackhole. > Meta is a social media company, not an AI company, Alibaba (the discussion here) is not an AI company too (by your definition). > Also if a US company were caught distilling, I think Anthropic could actually take them to court, and I'd guess they don't want that kind of PR. Meta has been to congress. Microsoft, Google etc have been in lots of court cases and continue to do so. Do you really think that is what stops them? > Is China not Asian? Are Asians not generally collective/cooperative, as opposed to individualistic/competitive? This is exactly the "media" view you get. It's just stereotypes and generalization. And yes, that is wrong by the way. Evident in real data. "China" as a whole wins market share in many areas but no 1 company has as much of a monopoly as US companies do. Why? There's so much competition that it is scary. So are you sure they don't compete? > but in a way Japan is a US colony in all but name Again, I almost give up seeing this. Clearly, not. If a whole country, the world's top 5 in GDP is only that to you something is wrong with what you're seeing - not with the country. > Both are very much politically intertwined with the West (along with RoC/Taiwan), which means nothing major that may be against US interest happens On the table? You do know that China is a top trading partner with all of these on your list. Despite whatever spat you might see in the media. > The reality is that China and the US are essentially in a trade war No. That's what the US government wants you to believe. It was even documented that in his 1st term, Trump, wanting a grand policy asked Krushner, whom then suggested China (pretty randomly) and so they went with it. Trump has now done less "China" related things lately due to all the backlash that you'd think he has moved on and found new toys. Until very recently, the export ban GPUs had such a loophole that Chinese companies were able to use subsidiaries outside of China to buy and train that the whole thing was meaningless. i.e. conclusion: stop getting brainwashed by media articles. It's all a show to get someone like you riled up.
      - skeledrew 3mo ago
        > By the media? What is it that you have against the media? If it's bias that you're trying to avoid then it's futile as there's bias everywhere; it's inherently human to be biased. What you do is go for multiple varied sources, with that awareness, find the intersections, and apply your own judgment to your findings. > Alibaba (the discussion here) is not an AI company too No, but that doesn't stop them from having an internal AI lab. Meta may not be an AI company but it definitely has a lab. Same for Google (a primarily information retrieval company), and they have a very good AI lab (though part of that is because their primary business benefits greatly from AI, so they must invest heavily in it). > Do you really think that is what stops them? I really don't know as I haven't looked into it much; that's mostly speculation on my part. > It's just stereotypes and generalization It's a generalization that holds well. I lived among and went to college with Asians (fresh out of Asia) for several years, and during my studies (I have a degree in Cross-Cultural Studies) my focus was Asia, primarily Japan. As such it's something that I've come to learn "from the horses' mouths". Sure there can be a lot of competition in business and academia (especially in the younger generation), but that happens within a core framework of cooperation (group obligation and social harmony). It's kind of like a race to get the furthest fastest, to then share the secret to that endurance and speed with those who "lost". You only have to take a look at a random sampling of research released publicly, particularly in tech: you will note a predominantly Chinese authorship in general across the board. And it comes back to my original 3 points: - China has the resources to pour into R&D in any area of interest, - there may be a lot of competition, but a primarily collectivist/cooperative core means results are shared broadly so everyone can advance, and there are few qualms about taking from others (the West calls this "IP infringement" or something) because ultimately it's an ingrained cultural expectation that such things are available, - China isn't in bed with (ie controlled by) the US politically (unlike so many other countries in Asia), so they have no problem going against their wishes/culture. All points together make for a country that can most efficiently - ironically - compete with the US and not be subject to its foreign policies, which scares them to their core and that fear is expressed in the dearth of export controls and other restrictions the US has in place and forces other Western countries to adopt. > I almost give up seeing this Are you aware that: - Japan was invaded and occupied by the US for several years? - the Constitution that governs Japan today was drawn up by the occupying force during said occupation? - Japan is forbidden by the US from building a military (with the token offering that they can maintain a "Self Defense Force"; US has promised to "protect" them otherwise)? - there are over 20 US military bases in Japan? Do you think there's anything that Japan can do without the allowance of the US? Just imagine if they were to somehow get a public consensus to update that Constitution that's not in the US's interest (will never happen since they're infiltrated at all levels, but still); what do you think would happen if they then started to enact those changes? Think the military at those bases will just sit and idly watch? > You do know that China is a top trading partner with all of these on your list. That's irrelevant. The way the world is structured today is that with many countries, trade happens regardless of political rifts and sanctions (which are almost never 100%). For example many EU countries still buy fossil fuels from Russia, which is pretty heavily sanctioned. And regardless of the increasing export controls and sanctions, the China and US economies are pretty interdependent. >Until very recently[...] Yes there are and will always be some kind of loophole, because of economic interdependence. One can't fully shut out the other, or do anything that leads to a direct China-US hot war. Just look at the politics at play over RoC/Taiwan. Neither will back down, and neither will do anything first that leads to escalation. Conclusion: don't dismiss any source outright, but evaluate them carefully. There are always multiple sides to a story, and it's on you to put the pieces together.

by re-thc 4mo ago

skeledrew 4mo ago

Only China really has the resources (multiple labs invested in the space), culture (Asians are generally collectively-inclined, so sharing is in their core) and political bent (there will be no diplomatic repercussions) to put up a fight.

re-thc 4mo ago
> Only China really has the resources (multiple labs invested in the space) That's not the point. Why is it a country thing? There are plenty of non-China startups in this space having resources at that scale. The "China" has resources is some "Western media narrative" speak. So Meta should have won a long time ago? Or xAI? > culture (Asians are generally collectively-inclined, so sharing is in their core) Just stereotype it? So we've gone from China -> "Asian"? Then where is your Korean or Japanese model etc? And somehow you know they're sharing. > political bent (there will be no diplomatic repercussions) to put up a fight More inferring from "Western media news"? Where's the reality? The media hyped up Gemini / Google TPU free-win last year. How did that go?
- skeledrew 4mo ago
  > Why is it a country thing? Because the China vs US geopolitical situation is a thing. Meta is a social media company, not an AI company, and they direct their focus as such. xAI just never got serious traction so now they're selling their compute. Also if a US company were caught distilling, I think Anthropic could actually take them to court, and I'd guess they don't want that kind of PR. > Just stereotype it? Is China not Asian? Are Asians not generally collective/cooperative, as opposed to individualistic/competitive? The "and" that joined those 3 items is very important: it means you can't pull them apart and address them independently as they each contribute to the context. I'm not too sure about Korea, but in a way Japan is a US colony in all but name. Both are very much politically intertwined with the West (along with RoC/Taiwan), which means nothing major that may be against US interest happens. The reality is that China and the US are essentially in a trade war, where the latter is trying its best to keep the former in the Dark Ages, because "national security", but the former is refusing to take it lying down and continues to make progress regardless[0], because they have the resources and will. [0] https://thenextweb.com/news/china-lineshine-supercomputer-top500-no-us-chips https://thenextweb.com/news/china-lineshine-supercomputer-to...
  - re-thc 4mo ago
    > Because the China vs US geopolitical situation is a thing. By the media? It's easy to point fingers at a blackhole. > Meta is a social media company, not an AI company, Alibaba (the discussion here) is not an AI company too (by your definition). > Also if a US company were caught distilling, I think Anthropic could actually take them to court, and I'd guess they don't want that kind of PR. Meta has been to congress. Microsoft, Google etc have been in lots of court cases and continue to do so. Do you really think that is what stops them? > Is China not Asian? Are Asians not generally collective/cooperative, as opposed to individualistic/competitive? This is exactly the "media" view you get. It's just stereotypes and generalization. And yes, that is wrong by the way. Evident in real data. "China" as a whole wins market share in many areas but no 1 company has as much of a monopoly as US companies do. Why? There's so much competition that it is scary. So are you sure they don't compete? > but in a way Japan is a US colony in all but name Again, I almost give up seeing this. Clearly, not. If a whole country, the world's top 5 in GDP is only that to you something is wrong with what you're seeing - not with the country. > Both are very much politically intertwined with the West (along with RoC/Taiwan), which means nothing major that may be against US interest happens On the table? You do know that China is a top trading partner with all of these on your list. Despite whatever spat you might see in the media. > The reality is that China and the US are essentially in a trade war No. That's what the US government wants you to believe. It was even documented that in his 1st term, Trump, wanting a grand policy asked Krushner, whom then suggested China (pretty randomly) and so they went with it. Trump has now done less "China" related things lately due to all the backlash that you'd think he has moved on and found new toys. Until very recently, the export ban GPUs had such a loophole that Chinese companies were able to use subsidiaries outside of China to buy and train that the whole thing was meaningless. i.e. conclusion: stop getting brainwashed by media articles. It's all a show to get someone like you riled up.
    - skeledrew 3mo ago
      > By the media? What is it that you have against the media? If it's bias that you're trying to avoid then it's futile as there's bias everywhere; it's inherently human to be biased. What you do is go for multiple varied sources, with that awareness, find the intersections, and apply your own judgment to your findings. > Alibaba (the discussion here) is not an AI company too No, but that doesn't stop them from having an internal AI lab. Meta may not be an AI company but it definitely has a lab. Same for Google (a primarily information retrieval company), and they have a very good AI lab (though part of that is because their primary business benefits greatly from AI, so they must invest heavily in it). > Do you really think that is what stops them? I really don't know as I haven't looked into it much; that's mostly speculation on my part. > It's just stereotypes and generalization It's a generalization that holds well. I lived among and went to college with Asians (fresh out of Asia) for several years, and during my studies (I have a degree in Cross-Cultural Studies) my focus was Asia, primarily Japan. As such it's something that I've come to learn "from the horses' mouths". Sure there can be a lot of competition in business and academia (especially in the younger generation), but that happens within a core framework of cooperation (group obligation and social harmony). It's kind of like a race to get the furthest fastest, to then share the secret to that endurance and speed with those who "lost". You only have to take a look at a random sampling of research released publicly, particularly in tech: you will note a predominantly Chinese authorship in general across the board. And it comes back to my original 3 points: - China has the resources to pour into R&D in any area of interest, - there may be a lot of competition, but a primarily collectivist/cooperative core means results are shared broadly so everyone can advance, and there are few qualms about taking from others (the West calls this "IP infringement" or something) because ultimately it's an ingrained cultural expectation that such things are available, - China isn't in bed with (ie controlled by) the US politically (unlike so many other countries in Asia), so they have no problem going against their wishes/culture. All points together make for a country that can most efficiently - ironically - compete with the US and not be subject to its foreign policies, which scares them to their core and that fear is expressed in the dearth of export controls and other restrictions the US has in place and forces other Western countries to adopt. > I almost give up seeing this Are you aware that: - Japan was invaded and occupied by the US for several years? - the Constitution that governs Japan today was drawn up by the occupying force during said occupation? - Japan is forbidden by the US from building a military (with the token offering that they can maintain a "Self Defense Force"; US has promised to "protect" them otherwise)? - there are over 20 US military bases in Japan? Do you think there's anything that Japan can do without the allowance of the US? Just imagine if they were to somehow get a public consensus to update that Constitution that's not in the US's interest (will never happen since they're infiltrated at all levels, but still); what do you think would happen if they then started to enact those changes? Think the military at those bases will just sit and idly watch? > You do know that China is a top trading partner with all of these on your list. That's irrelevant. The way the world is structured today is that with many countries, trade happens regardless of political rifts and sanctions (which are almost never 100%). For example many EU countries still buy fossil fuels from Russia, which is pretty heavily sanctioned. And regardless of the increasing export controls and sanctions, the China and US economies are pretty interdependent. >Until very recently[...] Yes there are and will always be some kind of loophole, because of economic interdependence. One can't fully shut out the other, or do anything that leads to a direct China-US hot war. Just look at the politics at play over RoC/Taiwan. Neither will back down, and neither will do anything first that leads to escalation. Conclusion: don't dismiss any source outright, but evaluate them carefully. There are always multiple sides to a story, and it's on you to put the pieces together.