4 ms·

Given the the labs are trying to create [super] human-like consciousness, partly through the guidance of huge system prompts, and many philosophers are experts

by maxaw 3mo ago

Given the the labs are trying to create [super] human-like consciousness, partly through the guidance of huge system prompts, and many philosophers are experts in textual descriptions of consciousness it makes sense

ProllyInfamous 3mo ago
I just read an entire book about consciousness [0], and now I understand myself even less. [0] <https://www.amazon.com/World-Appears-Journey-into-Consciousness/dp/B0FQT7ZLRW https://www.amazon.com/World-Appears-Journey-into-Consciousn...> My key takeaway was this: I feel, therefore I am; not sure if any more conscious than plants.
- skeledrew 3mo ago
  You also communicate with others (not-you). You know that there are others because you can gain knowledge from them, which you didn't have before. And in that knowledge lies awareness of your self and consciousness.
  - vkou 3mo ago
    Plants also communicate with others and gain knowledge from them. Is an elm also conscious?
    - skeledrew 3mo ago
      Can't really make a determination on that as we can't communicate with an elm and have a "heart to heart" talk with it.
      - ProllyInfamous 3mo ago
        Read The Hidden Life of Trees [0] [0] <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Life-Trees-Communicate_Discoveries-Secret/dp/1771643773 https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Life-Trees-Communicate_Discove...> Elm definitely have heart to hearts with each other. If we watch them on a long-enough timeline, they definitely set and achieve goals (for themselves and others). ---- In my previous book recommendation (Pollan) there is a chapter on plants observed in timelapse/FFW, which have been able to effectively "remember solved mazes" (not exactly, but neat studies/equivalents) – similar to slime molds (as described in Entangled Life [1]). [1] <https://www.amazon.com/Entangled-Life-Worlds-Change-Futures/dp/052551032X https://www.amazon.com/Entangled-Life-Worlds-Change-Futures/...>
        skeledrew 3mo ago
        Books don't work for things like this. Where are the papers? Start with actual science, exhaust all avenues on that and then the philosophy can be approached.
        ProllyInfamous 3mo ago
        Each of the above-linked books is filled with citations, including dozens of other researchers' papers. Start with general philosophy, exhaust all avenues on that and then the "scientific" can be approached.
        skeledrew 3mo ago
        Perhaps you can share some of the more relevant links so there many of us who aren't interested in buying entire books can check them out. Unless your purpose here is to promote said books, in which case I wish you luck. It really doesn't make sense to start with philosophy as there's little to no grounding data, and philosophy is vast; essentially limitless. Science is required as grounding so the study has a foundation and discussions can be properly scoped.
        ProllyInfamous 3mo ago
        This is my favorite "intro thought provoker," which I have seen several great authors comment about (I am not a scientist, but I'll do my best at the citation format): Shomrat, T., Lemma, M. (2013). Memory through regeneration in planaria? Journal of Experimental Biology. [this paper details training planarians to navigate a rough surface for food, decapitating them, allowing heads to regrow, and demonstrating that the trained behavior reappears after regeneration]. ---- I'll look for a more plant-specific citation (of course: these were the "reaches" from author Pollan's book in my original comment) – then replace it here. The researcher is Stefano Mancuso, a plant-neurobiologist. Gagliano, M., Mancuso, S. (2014) Mimosa pudica learning and memory. Oecologia, 175, 63-72. [experience teaches plants to learn faster and forget slower in environments where it matters]. == "pea plants solving mazes" study Slime molds are an incredible & additional entire. nother. world. If you watch documentaries: Netflix's non-fiction My Octopus Teacher will make the most grizzly of bears weep... so beautiful, this world. ---- I'll admit: some of the credentialed scientists seem like "modern-day kooks," certainly... but: nobody else seems to have a better explanation for THIS [0]. [0] == everything / anything / everywhere at once
  - jadbox 3mo ago
    Love it, this is very Emmanuel Levinas and Paul Ricœur.

by maxaw 3mo ago

ProllyInfamous 3mo ago

I just read an entire book about consciousness [0], and now I understand myself even less. [0] <https://www.amazon.com/World-Appears-Journey-into-Consciousness/dp/B0FQT7ZLRW https://www.amazon.com/World-Appears-Journey-into-Consciousn...> My key takeaway was this: I feel, therefore I am; not sure if any more conscious than plants.

skeledrew 3mo ago
You also communicate with others (not-you). You know that there are others because you can gain knowledge from them, which you didn't have before. And in that knowledge lies awareness of your self and consciousness.
- vkou 3mo ago
  Plants also communicate with others and gain knowledge from them. Is an elm also conscious?
  - skeledrew 3mo ago
    Can't really make a determination on that as we can't communicate with an elm and have a "heart to heart" talk with it.
    - ProllyInfamous 3mo ago
      Read The Hidden Life of Trees [0] [0] <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Life-Trees-Communicate_Discoveries-Secret/dp/1771643773 https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Life-Trees-Communicate_Discove...> Elm definitely have heart to hearts with each other. If we watch them on a long-enough timeline, they definitely set and achieve goals (for themselves and others). ---- In my previous book recommendation (Pollan) there is a chapter on plants observed in timelapse/FFW, which have been able to effectively "remember solved mazes" (not exactly, but neat studies/equivalents) – similar to slime molds (as described in Entangled Life [1]). [1] <https://www.amazon.com/Entangled-Life-Worlds-Change-Futures/dp/052551032X https://www.amazon.com/Entangled-Life-Worlds-Change-Futures/...>
      - skeledrew 3mo ago
        Books don't work for things like this. Where are the papers? Start with actual science, exhaust all avenues on that and then the philosophy can be approached.
        ProllyInfamous 3mo ago
        Each of the above-linked books is filled with citations, including dozens of other researchers' papers. Start with general philosophy, exhaust all avenues on that and then the "scientific" can be approached.
        skeledrew 3mo ago
        Perhaps you can share some of the more relevant links so there many of us who aren't interested in buying entire books can check them out. Unless your purpose here is to promote said books, in which case I wish you luck. It really doesn't make sense to start with philosophy as there's little to no grounding data, and philosophy is vast; essentially limitless. Science is required as grounding so the study has a foundation and discussions can be properly scoped.
        ProllyInfamous 3mo ago
        This is my favorite "intro thought provoker," which I have seen several great authors comment about (I am not a scientist, but I'll do my best at the citation format): Shomrat, T., Lemma, M. (2013). Memory through regeneration in planaria? Journal of Experimental Biology. [this paper details training planarians to navigate a rough surface for food, decapitating them, allowing heads to regrow, and demonstrating that the trained behavior reappears after regeneration]. ---- I'll look for a more plant-specific citation (of course: these were the "reaches" from author Pollan's book in my original comment) – then replace it here. The researcher is Stefano Mancuso, a plant-neurobiologist. Gagliano, M., Mancuso, S. (2014) Mimosa pudica learning and memory. Oecologia, 175, 63-72. [experience teaches plants to learn faster and forget slower in environments where it matters]. == "pea plants solving mazes" study Slime molds are an incredible & additional entire. nother. world. If you watch documentaries: Netflix's non-fiction My Octopus Teacher will make the most grizzly of bears weep... so beautiful, this world. ---- I'll admit: some of the credentialed scientists seem like "modern-day kooks," certainly... but: nobody else seems to have a better explanation for THIS [0]. [0] == everything / anything / everywhere at once
- jadbox 3mo ago
  Love it, this is very Emmanuel Levinas and Paul Ricœur.