4 ms·

Those happened many lifetimes ago. Much like the slave trade we recognize these actions by our ancestors to be wrong. There are many different conversations abo

Those happened many lifetimes ago. Much like the slave trade we recognize these actions by our ancestors to be wrong. There are many different conversations about "Land Back" or reparations for those affected by these systems, which often lead to nowhere. The distinction is this is happening today.

hardbass 3mo ago
Yes for example if a religious extremist British faction were trying to colonize Native American america today, I'd gladly support funding and arming them against the invaders. Whats centuries past is past, what is happening today is important.
- gershy 3mo ago
  This positions israel as the invader, but pro-israelis (like myself) will argue that historically israeli jews+arabs are the indigenous population, and have been the target of invasion, and israeli territorial expansion has been through arguably defensive wars. In your example I immediately think "you'd never support a native movement that willfully and indiscriminately murdered a bunch of british citizens". And to me it's an even weaker argument, as jews are indigenous to not-too-far-off from the borders of modern day israel - in a way that does not correspond to brits in america.
  - hardbass 3mo ago
    I don't mind the jews already living in the region. If European whites had immigrated peacefully and with consent of those already living then none of these problems would exist or would be much smaller. But no, we have Europeans forcibly carving out a chunk of that land and today we have classic "Levatine tribes" like the...Milejkowskis lording over that patch and killing the actual peoples who lived for centuries before them. These people are mostly Poles, Russians, Germans not natives.
    - gershy 3mo ago
      (see above)
      - hardbass 3mo ago
        That is not much relevant to the legality of living there. I could have French dna and have lived in Canada for 5 generations (let alone however many tens of generations white jews have been europeans), does that grant me any special rights to taking over the landmass that is France?
  - Computer0 3mo ago
    The issue isn't the historical Jews living there (now Palestinian) the issues are the European Jews moving there claiming that they have some sort of connection to the land over say Poland.
    - gershy 3mo ago
      Those european jews descend from judea (levant) - genetic tests confirm this. It's a rare instance of a displaced population returning home after centuries.
      - hardbass 3mo ago
        I have some few percent of French dna. Does this permit me to conquer France and displace the Frenchmen, whether whites of gaulish descent or african legal immigrants or anyone else? Unless I have a legal land purchase deed to some patch of land in France and a visa or other permit to live there, I have no rights to it. The jews living in israel are free to produce valid land deeds and an unbroken valid series of inheritance documents from any of the previous governments of the region if they can.
      - hardbass 3mo ago
        And what's the percentage of levant dna in them btw? If someone is 90% Polish, 10% Arab, why does it make sense to emphasize the 10% part over the 90% part?
gershy 3mo ago
I mean you could qualify it by saying e.g. "it's a post-19XX settler colonial movement" - that would be some refreshing nuance on what is otherwise glaringly ideological language, mostly parroted by those who don't know much about the history (hence, I suspect, the disregard you received from another commenter here). But even then the implication of some global cutoff year after which certain actions are officially no longer "ethical" or "advisable" is pretty ridiculous. Our ethical standards shouldn't vary only by what year it is, but rather ideally by the broadest possible context we are able to fathom. Israel is a unique case with indigenous jews returning to their native land after unparalleled delay, except in terms of borders modern-day israel doesn't perfectly map to ancient judea, and the crazy history of british intervention, geopolitical tension, war, expansion, and attempted peace treaties.

hardbass 3mo ago

Yes for example if a religious extremist British faction were trying to colonize Native American america today, I'd gladly support funding and arming them against the invaders. Whats centuries past is past, what is happening today is important.

gershy 3mo ago
This positions israel as the invader, but pro-israelis (like myself) will argue that historically israeli jews+arabs are the indigenous population, and have been the target of invasion, and israeli territorial expansion has been through arguably defensive wars. In your example I immediately think "you'd never support a native movement that willfully and indiscriminately murdered a bunch of british citizens". And to me it's an even weaker argument, as jews are indigenous to not-too-far-off from the borders of modern day israel - in a way that does not correspond to brits in america.
- hardbass 3mo ago
  I don't mind the jews already living in the region. If European whites had immigrated peacefully and with consent of those already living then none of these problems would exist or would be much smaller. But no, we have Europeans forcibly carving out a chunk of that land and today we have classic "Levatine tribes" like the...Milejkowskis lording over that patch and killing the actual peoples who lived for centuries before them. These people are mostly Poles, Russians, Germans not natives.
  - gershy 3mo ago
    (see above)
    - hardbass 3mo ago
      That is not much relevant to the legality of living there. I could have French dna and have lived in Canada for 5 generations (let alone however many tens of generations white jews have been europeans), does that grant me any special rights to taking over the landmass that is France?
- Computer0 3mo ago
  The issue isn't the historical Jews living there (now Palestinian) the issues are the European Jews moving there claiming that they have some sort of connection to the land over say Poland.
  - gershy 3mo ago
    Those european jews descend from judea (levant) - genetic tests confirm this. It's a rare instance of a displaced population returning home after centuries.
    - hardbass 3mo ago
      I have some few percent of French dna. Does this permit me to conquer France and displace the Frenchmen, whether whites of gaulish descent or african legal immigrants or anyone else? Unless I have a legal land purchase deed to some patch of land in France and a visa or other permit to live there, I have no rights to it. The jews living in israel are free to produce valid land deeds and an unbroken valid series of inheritance documents from any of the previous governments of the region if they can.
    - hardbass 3mo ago
      And what's the percentage of levant dna in them btw? If someone is 90% Polish, 10% Arab, why does it make sense to emphasize the 10% part over the 90% part?

gershy 3mo ago

I mean you could qualify it by saying e.g. "it's a post-19XX settler colonial movement" - that would be some refreshing nuance on what is otherwise glaringly ideological language, mostly parroted by those who don't know much about the history (hence, I suspect, the disregard you received from another commenter here). But even then the implication of some global cutoff year after which certain actions are officially no longer "ethical" or "advisable" is pretty ridiculous. Our ethical standards shouldn't vary only by what year it is, but rather ideally by the broadest possible context we are able to fathom. Israel is a unique case with indigenous jews returning to their native land after unparalleled delay, except in terms of borders modern-day israel doesn't perfectly map to ancient judea, and the crazy history of british intervention, geopolitical tension, war, expansion, and attempted peace treaties.