3 ms·

I agree with one of the comments: "'Coulda been Doom++' hides how everyone wanted the leap back then." Doom++ was already well under way in the form of Ken Sil

I agree with one of the comments: "'Coulda been Doom++' hides how everyone wanted the leap back then." Doom++ was already well under way in the form of Ken Silverman's Build engine. Duke Nukem 3D beat Quake to market by ~6 months as I recall. A shorter timeline on the latter would have put them in direct competition with each other, damaging both. It was Carmack's job to assert technological dominance and give the industry its next generation of game engines. He did just that, and shouldn't apologize or second-guess himself.

jorl17 4mo ago
Sandy might remember.
- CamperBob2 4mo ago
  Fair point, I'm going to retract that remark.
paulryanrogers 4mo ago
Id software would've benefitted from the income of another release. I thoroughly enjoyed Build games before and long after Quake. Demand was high. I doubt they'd have suffered even if released on the same day.
- somat 4mo ago
  It is also a case of different focus. in retorspect Id had a rather narrow focus. They made solid top tech engines and their games were fun. But very simple. The build engine and later the unreal engine the focus was more on having more fleshed out systems for the game makers to take advantage of. Id's engines feel quite sterile by comparison.
zaphar 4mo ago
I think it's quite fine to acknowledge that you pushed someone or some group of people to hard as a leader. A genre defining game is not the sort of thing that deserves wrecking someone. We may appreciate the game that came out the other end while acknowledging that it may not have been worth the cost.
- twoodfin 4mo ago
  Interestingly, as I read the thread that spawned this reply, Sandy appears to argue that in fact it was worth it, despite being personally “wrecked” and believing it might have been done differently.
ekelsen 4mo ago
Might matter a lot to sandy. I think it says a lot that decades later one of the things he remembers is someone he (or the larger company) hurt.
efficax 4mo ago
from my memory of the time the whole promise of quake was that it was going to be a huge technological innovation. that’s what we wanted, that’s what kept my interest and had me playing the leaked alpha and buying on day one. this is an interesting perspective they have because quake was a huge success. nobody at the time thought it fell short of doom. so maybe it broke id’s internal culture, but it put them in a position to continue to succeed. quake 2 was the misstep, it just wasn’t that great of a game, or that’s how it looked from the outside
- vkazanov 4mo ago
  Quake 1 was an unbelievable tech breakthrough: full 3d, quakec vm, overall engine design held up really well. It was not a perfect game but it was ok. I still hack on the engine and its derivations from time to time. Quake 2 was a development of that, will a deep focus on multiplayer. And it won at that. As a singlr player game it was boring but LAN play was just amazing. So quake 3 did rethink the engine but went all in on multiplayer. As funny as it may sound but in the end, it is quake 1 that just keeps going thanks to its easy moddabilty.
nickpeterson 4mo ago
It’s always interesting when people who excel at an activity express regrets about certain decisions. I find it reassuring that being great at something doesn’t mean flawless.
ipython 4mo ago
It is super refreshing to hear someone saying sorry. Honestly. In a manner that actually seems sincere and self reflective. Yes carmack may have been an asshole, but it takes a real man to recognize and own up to your own human flaws. Kudos. We need more of that in this world.
raverbashing 4mo ago
> It was Carmack's job to assert technological dominance and give the industry its next generation of game engines. Did they really? Did ID make more money with engine licensing than with game sales? They needed to ship. I think Quake Engine could wait, and have Doom++ would have given them some slack This is the opposite to the Boeing problem (shipping the rehashed product instead of the brand new thing)
- retr0rocket 4mo ago
  [dead]
- CamperBob2 4mo ago
  There was this obscure indy game called Half-Life, maybe you've heard of it. iD's engines were famously known in the industry as tech demos first, first-party game platforms second. I'm not sure how the revenue picture ended up looking, though. They obviously made a lot of money from their 'tech demos.'
  - raverbashing 4mo ago
    > There was this obscure indy game called Half-Life, Yes and Wikipedia claims it was a "heavily modified" version of the engine And while I get the tech demo angle, doesn't mean that Quake had to be one of those
pornel 4mo ago
I was interested in Quake only because of the breakthrough 3D graphics, architecturally stunning levels, and later QuakeC. I don't care for the story, and I wouldn't play Doom++. Electric polar bears and some Shrub lava mule, whatever. But swimming in deep underwater ruins with full 3-axis freedom was awesome. I couldn't play multiplayer back then. Dialup sucked and was more expensive than AI tokens. Ethernet was still rare. Lugging a CRT monitor to friend's house was a chore reserved for a once-a-year LAN party.
georgeburdell 4mo ago
Exactly. This sort of retrospective is a soft pulling up of the ladder, a do-as-I-say-not-as-I-did mea culpa where the conscience is assuaged but the spoils remain where they always were. We should accept that there is a season to burn the candle at both ends, to exploit youthful energy and to do great things. Current Carmack would not have been capable of making Quake.

jorl17 4mo ago

Sandy might remember.

CamperBob2 4mo ago
Fair point, I'm going to retract that remark.

paulryanrogers 4mo ago

Id software would've benefitted from the income of another release. I thoroughly enjoyed Build games before and long after Quake. Demand was high. I doubt they'd have suffered even if released on the same day.

somat 4mo ago
It is also a case of different focus. in retorspect Id had a rather narrow focus. They made solid top tech engines and their games were fun. But very simple. The build engine and later the unreal engine the focus was more on having more fleshed out systems for the game makers to take advantage of. Id's engines feel quite sterile by comparison.

zaphar 4mo ago

I think it's quite fine to acknowledge that you pushed someone or some group of people to hard as a leader. A genre defining game is not the sort of thing that deserves wrecking someone. We may appreciate the game that came out the other end while acknowledging that it may not have been worth the cost.

twoodfin 4mo ago
Interestingly, as I read the thread that spawned this reply, Sandy appears to argue that in fact it was worth it, despite being personally “wrecked” and believing it might have been done differently.

ekelsen 4mo ago

Might matter a lot to sandy. I think it says a lot that decades later one of the things he remembers is someone he (or the larger company) hurt.

efficax 4mo ago

from my memory of the time the whole promise of quake was that it was going to be a huge technological innovation. that’s what we wanted, that’s what kept my interest and had me playing the leaked alpha and buying on day one. this is an interesting perspective they have because quake was a huge success. nobody at the time thought it fell short of doom. so maybe it broke id’s internal culture, but it put them in a position to continue to succeed. quake 2 was the misstep, it just wasn’t that great of a game, or that’s how it looked from the outside

vkazanov 4mo ago
Quake 1 was an unbelievable tech breakthrough: full 3d, quakec vm, overall engine design held up really well. It was not a perfect game but it was ok. I still hack on the engine and its derivations from time to time. Quake 2 was a development of that, will a deep focus on multiplayer. And it won at that. As a singlr player game it was boring but LAN play was just amazing. So quake 3 did rethink the engine but went all in on multiplayer. As funny as it may sound but in the end, it is quake 1 that just keeps going thanks to its easy moddabilty.

nickpeterson 4mo ago

It’s always interesting when people who excel at an activity express regrets about certain decisions. I find it reassuring that being great at something doesn’t mean flawless.

ipython 4mo ago

It is super refreshing to hear someone saying sorry. Honestly. In a manner that actually seems sincere and self reflective. Yes carmack may have been an asshole, but it takes a real man to recognize and own up to your own human flaws. Kudos. We need more of that in this world.

raverbashing 4mo ago

> It was Carmack's job to assert technological dominance and give the industry its next generation of game engines. Did they really? Did ID make more money with engine licensing than with game sales? They needed to ship. I think Quake Engine could wait, and have Doom++ would have given them some slack This is the opposite to the Boeing problem (shipping the rehashed product instead of the brand new thing)

retr0rocket 4mo ago
[dead]
CamperBob2 4mo ago
There was this obscure indy game called Half-Life, maybe you've heard of it. iD's engines were famously known in the industry as tech demos first, first-party game platforms second. I'm not sure how the revenue picture ended up looking, though. They obviously made a lot of money from their 'tech demos.'
- raverbashing 4mo ago
  > There was this obscure indy game called Half-Life, Yes and Wikipedia claims it was a "heavily modified" version of the engine And while I get the tech demo angle, doesn't mean that Quake had to be one of those

pornel 4mo ago

I was interested in Quake only because of the breakthrough 3D graphics, architecturally stunning levels, and later QuakeC. I don't care for the story, and I wouldn't play Doom++. Electric polar bears and some Shrub lava mule, whatever. But swimming in deep underwater ruins with full 3-axis freedom was awesome. I couldn't play multiplayer back then. Dialup sucked and was more expensive than AI tokens. Ethernet was still rare. Lugging a CRT monitor to friend's house was a chore reserved for a once-a-year LAN party.

georgeburdell 4mo ago

Exactly. This sort of retrospective is a soft pulling up of the ladder, a do-as-I-say-not-as-I-did mea culpa where the conscience is assuaged but the spoils remain where they always were. We should accept that there is a season to burn the candle at both ends, to exploit youthful energy and to do great things. Current Carmack would not have been capable of making Quake.