4 ms·

Is that so? In Germany for example, you have a legal right to return anything you purchased via a remote means of communication - so e.g., the internet, or a ph

by 9dev 3mo ago

Is that so? In Germany for example, you have a legal right to return anything you purchased via a remote means of communication - so e.g., the internet, or a phone call - free of charge, within two weeks, and it must be simple to do so; if a vendor tries to obfuscate how to cancel a purchase contract, you can simply write them an email.

keiferski 3mo ago
yeah most US companies have return policies of 30 days or more, no questions asked.
- pwinnski 3mo ago
  The word "most" is doing a lot here. Europe guarantees consumer rights by law, while the US relies on companies adopting the practices voluntarily. Most do, but larger companies more universally than smaller, and it's by no means universal.
  - keiferski 3mo ago
    It's the reality for the vast majority of larger companies. Quibbling with word choice is really not a good argument.
    - lompad 3mo ago
      Try canceling your NYT subscription.
      - Saline9515 3mo ago
        The same exists in the EU, French Le Monde (NYT local equivalent) required you for a long time to send a registered letter costing 7€ and a trip to the post office to cancel your subscription.
      - r4indeer 3mo ago
        Let me support your argument by telling you what you just reminded me of... I was briefly subscribed to the NYT from Germany. To my surprise, I couldn't cancel online, but had to call. (The EU has a law which requires that if you can subscribe online, you must be able to cancel online.) They have national numbers for many countries, but they're just forwarders to the same call center, with notably mangled audio quality presumably due to multiple lossy compression algorithms applied at each hop of the call. Additionally, there was lots of background noise when I got connected to a rep. Over this barely usable line, I was now asked to spell out my email address, which naturally took multiple attempts of painfully slow spelling before the rep was able to locate my account. (My very limited knowledge of the NATO alphabet didn't help.) Of course, I then had to go through the spiel of declining alternative offers and providing a reason for my cancellation (all of which I never had to do in Germany before) before they finally confirmed it. Yeah, I'm glad about consumer protection law in the EU.
      - glad_duck 3mo ago
        So don't subscribe. It's not that hard to cancel though, yes, you need to spend some time on the phone.
    - jeromegv 3mo ago
      We are talking of entrepreneurship and new companies, what small business are required to do for returns/refunds in the US is definitely not ahead of Europe for consumer protection. It's not word choice, you are just making the wrong argument.
  - glad_duck 3mo ago
    Don't buy if you don't like company policy, no need to have a law. There is plenty of choice in the US. Some companies even offer 90 days (again, no laws required).
    - 9dev 3mo ago
      I'd find it tiresome real quick to always have to research before purchasing anything if the vendor will treat me with respect. Having a baseline of what you can expect from any business relation guaranteed by law is pretty great, really.
      - glad_duck 3mo ago
        Really? There are tons of ways to cheat and game any system, including consumer protection. No laws can close this completely. Darwin award is still a thing and will always be.
- tyg13 3mo ago
  most large companies, maybe, but small-to-medium-sized businesses can and will tell you to take a hike. there are no consumer protections in the US regarding returns beyond the goodwill of the company
  - glad_duck 3mo ago
    That's why they are dying (those who tell you to take a hike). Why would I buy from a small business without a possibility to return if I can buy from Amazon with guaranteed 30 days? It's your choice. Honestly, I bought enough stuff from small to medium companies and most of them allow returns. If not, it's my choice not to buy. Not everything should be a law, and laws are not free, somebody has to pay (just like for 30 day return). Guess who pays? Well, it's ... you.
    - 9dev 3mo ago
      > Why would I buy from a small business without a possibility to return if I can buy from Amazon with guaranteed 30 days? Perhaps because you don't want all retail to be Amazon? > laws are not free, somebody has to pay Isn't that a bit hyperbole? That law is written once, and delivers its effects afterwards. In contrast, millions of buyers have to investigate return policies every day without such a law. Is that really a better use of time?
      - glad_duck 3mo ago
        It's not a hyperbole. Generous return terms means you are paying more for goods, everybody does. Where do you think goods returned to Amazon go to die? They are sold at discount, and Amazon is not dumb, they are not working at a loss, so you pay more for new goods. The less risk, the higher the price. If you have a law, that means no matter where you buy, you pay a premium as it's already included. I would prefer to have a choice. And you don't have to buy on Amazon, most companies in the US accept returns in this way or another. Some ask you to pay a small premium for returns, it's up to you to pay it or not. Those who don't accept back damaged goods (no matter what policy is) usually got chargebacks which are commonly approved by the banks, and it's pretty expensive for sellers. So there are many ways to regulate returns, law is not the only one.
WarmWash 3mo ago
One of the major reasons US consumers shop with megacorp over small business is because of the no hassle returns.
- 9dev 3mo ago
  Exactly my point. In Germany I can order from the smallest of webshops without even reading their return policy, because I am guaranteed favourable terms by law.
  - toast0 3mo ago
    In the US, if the remote merchant doesn't accept a return (or is non responsive), a credit card chargeback would be in order. The customer almost always wins those. And the merchant always has to pay a fee for the chargeback, even when they win, so they're incentivized to avoid them. The merchant agreement isn't as effective as a well enforced law, but it's pretty close.
  - frugalmail 3mo ago
    So the person that wants to sell that ultra-unique item that isn't produced by mega-corp, and the person that wants to buy that ultra-unique item despite unfavorable return policies never gets their needs met.
    - 9dev 3mo ago
      Why would that be the case? Maybe you’re thinking of customised or commissioned items, which are an exception explicitly called out in the law and require a defect by the seller to return (so you can’t just return eg a painting made for you on a whim, but if it arrives damaged, you can)
      - frugalmail 3mo ago
        Thats good to know, but I'm talking about that person that's trying to start a business, without incurring massive liability, doing small run 3d print jobs, some early run smart home device, some small one person SaaS, crochet niche hobby things, etc... The type of thing that might go from side gig to actual long running business that could end up employing a bunch of people.
tchalla 3mo ago
What happens after 2 weeks?
- 9dev 3mo ago
  You loose the right to change your mind and return the goods without any reason given, but of course you still have warranty of 6 months; if anything breaks with the product in that time, you can request the seller to make up by offering a repair, replacement, or refund (whatever they deem most appropriate), and while the seller can contest that, they are obliged to prove it’s your fault, not theirs. After that timeframe, this obligation reverses.
  - tchalla 3mo ago
    How easy is it to enforce that warranty?

by 9dev 3mo ago

keiferski 3mo ago

yeah most US companies have return policies of 30 days or more, no questions asked.

pwinnski 3mo ago
The word "most" is doing a lot here. Europe guarantees consumer rights by law, while the US relies on companies adopting the practices voluntarily. Most do, but larger companies more universally than smaller, and it's by no means universal.
- keiferski 3mo ago
  It's the reality for the vast majority of larger companies. Quibbling with word choice is really not a good argument.
  - lompad 3mo ago
    Try canceling your NYT subscription.
    - Saline9515 3mo ago
      The same exists in the EU, French Le Monde (NYT local equivalent) required you for a long time to send a registered letter costing 7€ and a trip to the post office to cancel your subscription.
    - r4indeer 3mo ago
      Let me support your argument by telling you what you just reminded me of... I was briefly subscribed to the NYT from Germany. To my surprise, I couldn't cancel online, but had to call. (The EU has a law which requires that if you can subscribe online, you must be able to cancel online.) They have national numbers for many countries, but they're just forwarders to the same call center, with notably mangled audio quality presumably due to multiple lossy compression algorithms applied at each hop of the call. Additionally, there was lots of background noise when I got connected to a rep. Over this barely usable line, I was now asked to spell out my email address, which naturally took multiple attempts of painfully slow spelling before the rep was able to locate my account. (My very limited knowledge of the NATO alphabet didn't help.) Of course, I then had to go through the spiel of declining alternative offers and providing a reason for my cancellation (all of which I never had to do in Germany before) before they finally confirmed it. Yeah, I'm glad about consumer protection law in the EU.
    - glad_duck 3mo ago
      So don't subscribe. It's not that hard to cancel though, yes, you need to spend some time on the phone.
  - jeromegv 3mo ago
    We are talking of entrepreneurship and new companies, what small business are required to do for returns/refunds in the US is definitely not ahead of Europe for consumer protection. It's not word choice, you are just making the wrong argument.
- glad_duck 3mo ago
  Don't buy if you don't like company policy, no need to have a law. There is plenty of choice in the US. Some companies even offer 90 days (again, no laws required).
  - 9dev 3mo ago
    I'd find it tiresome real quick to always have to research before purchasing anything if the vendor will treat me with respect. Having a baseline of what you can expect from any business relation guaranteed by law is pretty great, really.
    - glad_duck 3mo ago
      Really? There are tons of ways to cheat and game any system, including consumer protection. No laws can close this completely. Darwin award is still a thing and will always be.
tyg13 3mo ago
most large companies, maybe, but small-to-medium-sized businesses can and will tell you to take a hike. there are no consumer protections in the US regarding returns beyond the goodwill of the company
- glad_duck 3mo ago
  That's why they are dying (those who tell you to take a hike). Why would I buy from a small business without a possibility to return if I can buy from Amazon with guaranteed 30 days? It's your choice. Honestly, I bought enough stuff from small to medium companies and most of them allow returns. If not, it's my choice not to buy. Not everything should be a law, and laws are not free, somebody has to pay (just like for 30 day return). Guess who pays? Well, it's ... you.
  - 9dev 3mo ago
    > Why would I buy from a small business without a possibility to return if I can buy from Amazon with guaranteed 30 days? Perhaps because you don't want all retail to be Amazon? > laws are not free, somebody has to pay Isn't that a bit hyperbole? That law is written once, and delivers its effects afterwards. In contrast, millions of buyers have to investigate return policies every day without such a law. Is that really a better use of time?
    - glad_duck 3mo ago
      It's not a hyperbole. Generous return terms means you are paying more for goods, everybody does. Where do you think goods returned to Amazon go to die? They are sold at discount, and Amazon is not dumb, they are not working at a loss, so you pay more for new goods. The less risk, the higher the price. If you have a law, that means no matter where you buy, you pay a premium as it's already included. I would prefer to have a choice. And you don't have to buy on Amazon, most companies in the US accept returns in this way or another. Some ask you to pay a small premium for returns, it's up to you to pay it or not. Those who don't accept back damaged goods (no matter what policy is) usually got chargebacks which are commonly approved by the banks, and it's pretty expensive for sellers. So there are many ways to regulate returns, law is not the only one.

WarmWash 3mo ago

One of the major reasons US consumers shop with megacorp over small business is because of the no hassle returns.

9dev 3mo ago
Exactly my point. In Germany I can order from the smallest of webshops without even reading their return policy, because I am guaranteed favourable terms by law.
- toast0 3mo ago
  In the US, if the remote merchant doesn't accept a return (or is non responsive), a credit card chargeback would be in order. The customer almost always wins those. And the merchant always has to pay a fee for the chargeback, even when they win, so they're incentivized to avoid them. The merchant agreement isn't as effective as a well enforced law, but it's pretty close.
- frugalmail 3mo ago
  So the person that wants to sell that ultra-unique item that isn't produced by mega-corp, and the person that wants to buy that ultra-unique item despite unfavorable return policies never gets their needs met.
  - 9dev 3mo ago
    Why would that be the case? Maybe you’re thinking of customised or commissioned items, which are an exception explicitly called out in the law and require a defect by the seller to return (so you can’t just return eg a painting made for you on a whim, but if it arrives damaged, you can)
    - frugalmail 3mo ago
      Thats good to know, but I'm talking about that person that's trying to start a business, without incurring massive liability, doing small run 3d print jobs, some early run smart home device, some small one person SaaS, crochet niche hobby things, etc... The type of thing that might go from side gig to actual long running business that could end up employing a bunch of people.

tchalla 3mo ago

What happens after 2 weeks?

9dev 3mo ago
You loose the right to change your mind and return the goods without any reason given, but of course you still have warranty of 6 months; if anything breaks with the product in that time, you can request the seller to make up by offering a repair, replacement, or refund (whatever they deem most appropriate), and while the seller can contest that, they are obliged to prove it’s your fault, not theirs. After that timeframe, this obligation reverses.
- tchalla 3mo ago
  How easy is it to enforce that warranty?