6 ms·

It sounds like you had some bad experiences, but do you really think that Apple makes products with "no engineering applied past experience"? Surely Apple's pro

It sounds like you had some bad experiences, but do you really think that Apple makes products with "no engineering applied past experience"? Surely Apple's products have had faults, and it sounds like you've been bitten more than once. I don't blame you for not liking the company or its products. However, there are lots of satisfied customers, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who believed that their build process and supply chain is not top notch. FWIW, whenever I've had any trouble with getting support for Apple products, an email to sjobs@apple.com (now tcook@) solved the problem promptly. In my experience, the company does screw up, but if you bring a problem to their attention, they'll make it right.

meaty 14y ago
Yes I do - they are shit, so is their engineering and I'm not afraid to go against the grain and say it. I've never heard of a satisfied long term customer i.e. most of the praise comes from new users with shiny toys. My father has just been screwed by his 1st gen iPad because some of the apps will no longer install and IOS6 is not available (to the trash it goes), his white iPhone 4S has proximity sensor issues to the point it's unusable and they refuse to repair it, my boss's MBP LCD inverter melted, we've got a cupboard full of 7 dead Mac Minis in the office, the old optical mice just didn't work (the one with the little ball) or the logic board fell out inside and lets not even mention the time capsule saga or the OSX update which fucked the filesystems on lots of machines (10.5.3). There is a whole million miles of these problems out there and so far it's usually kept covered by the reality distortion field. Build process fine. Supply chain fine. But the inputs to those is unadulterated crap. Fuck, I don't want to have to complain - I want something to just work with no problems. Screw sjobs@ / tcook@ pandering. Just make some shit that works.
- eropple 14y ago
  > I've never heard of a satisfied long term customer Four MBPs, including a retina MBP. Couldn't be happier. Two iPads and two iPhones, switched to Android largely because of a new job and because I wanted a local environment for running vim. See? Other people have anecdotes too. But I get that contrariness and the application of your own pet anecdotes over evidence is really fun, so continue, by all means.
  - rozap 14y ago
    I think what he's going for is that, had you kept your original MBP, you would be unsatisfied. Not saying he's right or wrong there. However, I think it is fair to say that the majority of Apple fans often have a pretty frequent upgrade cycle. Consequently I don't think there are too many "long term customers" of Apple products in his sense of the word. I think Meaty is really going for "long term" customer as in - infrequent customer, keeping devices for long term.
    - eropple 14y ago
      I'd be "unsatisfied" because a slow processor, a 4GB RAM maximum, and a shitty GPU would suck, sure. I upgrade and sell my old machines on a yearly basis or so because paying a $300-$400 delta (sell the old one, buy the new one) is worth it to have something in the target area for Apple and for developers. There's no point for me in keeping older devices long-term because nobody really targets the trailing edge. I spend more on car repairs in any given year than I do on my laptop upgrades; it is just not a significant amount of money. If "people who keep old stuff" was what he was really going for, he's doing poorly at describing it, because I don't think that "long term customer" doesn't mean "customer who refuses to upgrade for geologic eras" among reasonable folks. And I certainly don't think an ecosystem where newer devices are generally preferred is a symptom of "bad engineering"--more "engineering decisions he doesn't like." Every MBP iteration has made me much more pleased to actually use the machine, and that's the core of what matters.
      - Tipzntrix 14y ago
        You see with Windows, Microsoft targetted (or at least went WAY out of their way to accommodate) the trailing edge. hell, they even held support for many DOS programs for a long time. This pattern looks like it might be changing with Metro though.
        eropple 14y ago
        Microsoft did, sure, but I'm referring more to application and game developers. The OS features are nice-to-haves to be sure, but if your applications are outpacing your hardware...
- gnaffle 14y ago
  I'm a happy long term Mac user. However, I've resisted buying first generation products, and I wouldn't buy Apple products without an option to cancel the purchase. I'm happy with the attention put into the product design, but not with their quality control. If Lenovo made laptops with touchpads that worked as well as MacBooks, I would switch. But no such luck so far.
  - ericabiz 14y ago
    The Thinkpad X1 Carbon has a nice touchpad with 2-finger scroll as well. The only (minor) quibble I have with it is that it only lets you go one direction with the 2-finger scroll (you have to swipe down for down--you can't reverse it like you can on a Mac.) Otherwise, it's very comparable.
- icarus_drowning 14y ago
  Just to add to the anecdotal evidence bandwagon, I'm another very happy long term customer, with almost a decade of happy purchases. I've never had a problem nor experienced anything but excellent service. I've had iPhones replaced for free (without Apple Care), free repairs for faulty components in 2 MacBook Pro's (performed immediately and at no cost). I don't blame you for you dislike of the Apple brand given how you've apparently been treated, but realize that your experience seems to be somewhat anomalous.
  - timbre 14y ago
    This may just be a difference in attitude. For myself, I would count having multiple iPhones and MacBook Pros replaced or repaired as a terrible experience. Good service is better than bad service, and occasional defects are unavoidable, but the iPhone is only 5 years old; multiple replacements within that span would give me doubts about a company (unless you're buying lots of them, e.g. if your at a company that supplies employees with phones).
    - cloverich 14y ago
      Somewhat less anecdotally, I worked Helpdesk at a company ~3 yrs ago, and most of our employees had either Lenovo's (T61's, T400s) or MBP's. I didn't notice a significant difference in the failure rate between the two.
    - icarus_drowning 14y ago
      I would agree, but do note that one iPhone was dropped in a cup of tea, which I can't really blame on Apple, and the other on cement, which I likewise can't really blame on Apple. The macbooks both had bad video cards, which I do blame Apple for. But one was fixed in less than an hour, the other RMA'd and returned in 48 hours. This after almost 3 years of continuous use. I can put up with 2 or 3 days of repair after that many years of trouble-free life. This kind of service and reliability led me to buy an iMac from them as my work computer and I haven't had a single problem with it.
- achompas 14y ago
  Had my first-gen Intel white poly MacBook for 5 years. Could've run it longer but a friend needed a new laptop so I passed it on.
- parasubvert 14y ago
  Over 13 years I have purchased 8 Apple laptops, three iMacs, five iPhones, and two iPads. With the Macs I have had three or four minor problems from time to time (covered under warranty), and have also had several iPhones replaced due to accidental damage (some for free). All were first gen purchases. During this time I've also owned three Dell laptops, an Acer, and a Thinkpad. The Dells were mostly study though one's motherboard died. The Acer was also OK but was stolen so I didn't get a full life out of it. In short, I'm quite happy with Apple quality, and have no desire to move away from them unless there's a very compelling alternative to come.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  IOS6 is not available (to the trash it goes) It's important to dispose of iPads in an environmentally friendly manner. There are lots of toxic materials and metals in the PCB and other components, and the batteries can start fires or emit noxious gases. Rather than throwing it away in the trash, I recommend sending it to me for proper disposal.
DannyBee 14y ago
A great example of "no engineering applied past appearance": The strain reliefs on every power adapter they make start out horrible, they fray, they get a lawsuit, then they fix them to look "uglier" but actually work. Then they release a new power adapter that looks good but sucks again and the cycle continues. I'm having trouble finding the lawsuit over the old powerbook connectors, so let's start with magsafe 1 Original magsafe 1: http://support.apple.com/kb/TS4127 http://support.apple.com/kb/TS4127 They got sued. This was the settlement. Note that every single magsafe power adapter i have frayed. There is an article in an atlantic that quotes a supposed apple employee saying they knew this was a bad idea. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2012/07/why-apples-power-cords-keep-breaking/55202/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2012/07/why-apples... (Obviously, i don't think this is reliable sourcing, but it's plausible) Newer magsafe 1: These are the ones that are sideways and have a much larger strain relief, and look like this: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2012/07/why-apples-power-cords-keep-breaking/55202/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2012/07/why-apples... Great, problem solved, less strain. Let's look at magsafe 2: http://photos.appleinsider.com/12.06.11-MBP-3.jpg http://photos.appleinsider.com/12.06.11-MBP-3.jpg Whoops, back to the same issue of cables mostly bent at harsh angles due to T shaped adapters, and a smaller strain relief. Admittedly, it's bigger than the original magsafe 1 strain relief, but I expect it's only a matter of time before these fray again.
- mturmon 14y ago
  But: many people have had no problem with any of these Magsafe designs, despite frequent use. Weird, huh?
  - DannyBee 14y ago
    It's not weird. Plenty of people have not had problems with aluminum wiring in their houses, even when screwed to copper fixtures. Others have had house fires. The lack of a 100% instantaneous failure rate does not mean there was a good engineering design, or even any engineering design past appearance. In the case of magsafe, the incidence and number of claims of fraying, actual wire melting, etc, was so high that it was very clearly "bad engineering". (You are talking about at least tens of thousands of adapters that were actually replaced after actual signs of failure) The case was settled through ADR 6 months after ADR starterd, and included apple agreeing to replace all adapters that showed any signs of strain relief failure for up to three years from the date of the initial settlement.

meaty 14y ago

Yes I do - they are shit, so is their engineering and I'm not afraid to go against the grain and say it. I've never heard of a satisfied long term customer i.e. most of the praise comes from new users with shiny toys. My father has just been screwed by his 1st gen iPad because some of the apps will no longer install and IOS6 is not available (to the trash it goes), his white iPhone 4S has proximity sensor issues to the point it's unusable and they refuse to repair it, my boss's MBP LCD inverter melted, we've got a cupboard full of 7 dead Mac Minis in the office, the old optical mice just didn't work (the one with the little ball) or the logic board fell out inside and lets not even mention the time capsule saga or the OSX update which fucked the filesystems on lots of machines (10.5.3). There is a whole million miles of these problems out there and so far it's usually kept covered by the reality distortion field. Build process fine. Supply chain fine. But the inputs to those is unadulterated crap. Fuck, I don't want to have to complain - I want something to just work with no problems. Screw sjobs@ / tcook@ pandering. Just make some shit that works.

eropple 14y ago
> I've never heard of a satisfied long term customer Four MBPs, including a retina MBP. Couldn't be happier. Two iPads and two iPhones, switched to Android largely because of a new job and because I wanted a local environment for running vim. See? Other people have anecdotes too. But I get that contrariness and the application of your own pet anecdotes over evidence is really fun, so continue, by all means.
- rozap 14y ago
  I think what he's going for is that, had you kept your original MBP, you would be unsatisfied. Not saying he's right or wrong there. However, I think it is fair to say that the majority of Apple fans often have a pretty frequent upgrade cycle. Consequently I don't think there are too many "long term customers" of Apple products in his sense of the word. I think Meaty is really going for "long term" customer as in - infrequent customer, keeping devices for long term.
  - eropple 14y ago
    I'd be "unsatisfied" because a slow processor, a 4GB RAM maximum, and a shitty GPU would suck, sure. I upgrade and sell my old machines on a yearly basis or so because paying a $300-$400 delta (sell the old one, buy the new one) is worth it to have something in the target area for Apple and for developers. There's no point for me in keeping older devices long-term because nobody really targets the trailing edge. I spend more on car repairs in any given year than I do on my laptop upgrades; it is just not a significant amount of money. If "people who keep old stuff" was what he was really going for, he's doing poorly at describing it, because I don't think that "long term customer" doesn't mean "customer who refuses to upgrade for geologic eras" among reasonable folks. And I certainly don't think an ecosystem where newer devices are generally preferred is a symptom of "bad engineering"--more "engineering decisions he doesn't like." Every MBP iteration has made me much more pleased to actually use the machine, and that's the core of what matters.
    - Tipzntrix 14y ago
      You see with Windows, Microsoft targetted (or at least went WAY out of their way to accommodate) the trailing edge. hell, they even held support for many DOS programs for a long time. This pattern looks like it might be changing with Metro though.
      - eropple 14y ago
        Microsoft did, sure, but I'm referring more to application and game developers. The OS features are nice-to-haves to be sure, but if your applications are outpacing your hardware...
gnaffle 14y ago
I'm a happy long term Mac user. However, I've resisted buying first generation products, and I wouldn't buy Apple products without an option to cancel the purchase. I'm happy with the attention put into the product design, but not with their quality control. If Lenovo made laptops with touchpads that worked as well as MacBooks, I would switch. But no such luck so far.
- ericabiz 14y ago
  The Thinkpad X1 Carbon has a nice touchpad with 2-finger scroll as well. The only (minor) quibble I have with it is that it only lets you go one direction with the 2-finger scroll (you have to swipe down for down--you can't reverse it like you can on a Mac.) Otherwise, it's very comparable.
icarus_drowning 14y ago
Just to add to the anecdotal evidence bandwagon, I'm another very happy long term customer, with almost a decade of happy purchases. I've never had a problem nor experienced anything but excellent service. I've had iPhones replaced for free (without Apple Care), free repairs for faulty components in 2 MacBook Pro's (performed immediately and at no cost). I don't blame you for you dislike of the Apple brand given how you've apparently been treated, but realize that your experience seems to be somewhat anomalous.
- timbre 14y ago
  This may just be a difference in attitude. For myself, I would count having multiple iPhones and MacBook Pros replaced or repaired as a terrible experience. Good service is better than bad service, and occasional defects are unavoidable, but the iPhone is only 5 years old; multiple replacements within that span would give me doubts about a company (unless you're buying lots of them, e.g. if your at a company that supplies employees with phones).
  - cloverich 14y ago
    Somewhat less anecdotally, I worked Helpdesk at a company ~3 yrs ago, and most of our employees had either Lenovo's (T61's, T400s) or MBP's. I didn't notice a significant difference in the failure rate between the two.
  - icarus_drowning 14y ago
    I would agree, but do note that one iPhone was dropped in a cup of tea, which I can't really blame on Apple, and the other on cement, which I likewise can't really blame on Apple. The macbooks both had bad video cards, which I do blame Apple for. But one was fixed in less than an hour, the other RMA'd and returned in 48 hours. This after almost 3 years of continuous use. I can put up with 2 or 3 days of repair after that many years of trouble-free life. This kind of service and reliability led me to buy an iMac from them as my work computer and I haven't had a single problem with it.
achompas 14y ago
Had my first-gen Intel white poly MacBook for 5 years. Could've run it longer but a friend needed a new laptop so I passed it on.
parasubvert 14y ago
Over 13 years I have purchased 8 Apple laptops, three iMacs, five iPhones, and two iPads. With the Macs I have had three or four minor problems from time to time (covered under warranty), and have also had several iPhones replaced due to accidental damage (some for free). All were first gen purchases. During this time I've also owned three Dell laptops, an Acer, and a Thinkpad. The Dells were mostly study though one's motherboard died. The Acer was also OK but was stolen so I didn't get a full life out of it. In short, I'm quite happy with Apple quality, and have no desire to move away from them unless there's a very compelling alternative to come.
CamperBob2 14y ago
IOS6 is not available (to the trash it goes) It's important to dispose of iPads in an environmentally friendly manner. There are lots of toxic materials and metals in the PCB and other components, and the batteries can start fires or emit noxious gases. Rather than throwing it away in the trash, I recommend sending it to me for proper disposal.

DannyBee 14y ago

A great example of "no engineering applied past appearance": The strain reliefs on every power adapter they make start out horrible, they fray, they get a lawsuit, then they fix them to look "uglier" but actually work. Then they release a new power adapter that looks good but sucks again and the cycle continues. I'm having trouble finding the lawsuit over the old powerbook connectors, so let's start with magsafe 1 Original magsafe 1: http://support.apple.com/kb/TS4127 http://support.apple.com/kb/TS4127 They got sued. This was the settlement. Note that every single magsafe power adapter i have frayed. There is an article in an atlantic that quotes a supposed apple employee saying they knew this was a bad idea. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2012/07/why-apples-power-cords-keep-breaking/55202/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2012/07/why-apples... (Obviously, i don't think this is reliable sourcing, but it's plausible) Newer magsafe 1: These are the ones that are sideways and have a much larger strain relief, and look like this: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2012/07/why-apples-power-cords-keep-breaking/55202/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2012/07/why-apples... Great, problem solved, less strain. Let's look at magsafe 2: http://photos.appleinsider.com/12.06.11-MBP-3.jpg http://photos.appleinsider.com/12.06.11-MBP-3.jpg Whoops, back to the same issue of cables mostly bent at harsh angles due to T shaped adapters, and a smaller strain relief. Admittedly, it's bigger than the original magsafe 1 strain relief, but I expect it's only a matter of time before these fray again.

mturmon 14y ago
But: many people have had no problem with any of these Magsafe designs, despite frequent use. Weird, huh?
- DannyBee 14y ago
  It's not weird. Plenty of people have not had problems with aluminum wiring in their houses, even when screwed to copper fixtures. Others have had house fires. The lack of a 100% instantaneous failure rate does not mean there was a good engineering design, or even any engineering design past appearance. In the case of magsafe, the incidence and number of claims of fraying, actual wire melting, etc, was so high that it was very clearly "bad engineering". (You are talking about at least tens of thousands of adapters that were actually replaced after actual signs of failure) The case was settled through ADR 6 months after ADR starterd, and included apple agreeing to replace all adapters that showed any signs of strain relief failure for up to three years from the date of the initial settlement.