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The US system is built to support entrepreneurship while the EU system broadly is to support the consumer and employee. The US will never be able to match the E

The US system is built to support entrepreneurship while the EU system broadly is to support the consumer and employee. The US will never be able to match the EU's consumer and employee protections and the EU will never be able to match the US's ease of doing business, because to have one you have to fundamentally give in on the other. Depending on who you ask, one system is wildly better than the other, but at the end of they day they are just different systems with different tradeoffs.

keiferski 4mo ago
I think this is a false dichotomy. Consumer return policies, customer service, etc. tend to be much better in the US than in the EU. I would characterize it rather that the US is pro-business and pro-consumer, but somewhat anti-average worker.
- wbl 4mo ago
  Except every two weeks when he gets a bigger paycheck than most senior UK government positions
- echoangle 4mo ago
  > Consumer return policies, customer service, etc. tend to be much better in the US than in the EU. Maybe the ones voluntarily offered by companies, but not the legal ones.
  - keiferski 4mo ago
    Not sure if that matters much. Only the actual end result does. The better policies given by US companies is also likely driven by competition, so by definition they wouldn't be something that a government regulation could accomplish (other than to incentivize more competition.)
    - echoangle 4mo ago
      It does because for one you can go to court. If a company stops playing nice because they think you’re defrauding them if you tell them your package went missing during transit, company niceness doesn’t get you anything. (That’s a random example btw, I don’t know how this is handled legally in the US. The point is that there are situations where you actually want the law on your side).
      - keiferski 4mo ago
        Suing people and companies is a national pastime in America. I really don't think the EU has an advantage there...
      - lazyasciiart 4mo ago
        You don’t have to go to court even - there is usually a regulatory body that will enforce these for you. This is the whole reason why there is an image of America as sue-happy: they have chosen a regulatory system of “so sue them” instead of a functioning consumer protection system (or any authority with the ability to enforce the ADA, for example).
- 9dev 4mo ago
  Is that so? In Germany for example, you have a legal right to return anything you purchased via a remote means of communication - so e.g., the internet, or a phone call - free of charge, within two weeks, and it must be simple to do so; if a vendor tries to obfuscate how to cancel a purchase contract, you can simply write them an email.
  - keiferski 4mo ago
    yeah most US companies have return policies of 30 days or more, no questions asked.
    - pwinnski 4mo ago
      The word "most" is doing a lot here. Europe guarantees consumer rights by law, while the US relies on companies adopting the practices voluntarily. Most do, but larger companies more universally than smaller, and it's by no means universal.
      - keiferski 4mo ago
        It's the reality for the vast majority of larger companies. Quibbling with word choice is really not a good argument.
        lompad 4mo ago
        Try canceling your NYT subscription.
        Saline9515 4mo ago
        The same exists in the EU, French Le Monde (NYT local equivalent) required you for a long time to send a registered letter costing 7€ and a trip to the post office to cancel your subscription.
        r4indeer 4mo ago
        Let me support your argument by telling you what you just reminded me of... I was briefly subscribed to the NYT from Germany. To my surprise, I couldn't cancel online, but had to call. (The EU has a law which requires that if you can subscribe online, you must be able to cancel online.) They have national numbers for many countries, but they're just forwarders to the same call center, with notably mangled audio quality presumably due to multiple lossy compression algorithms applied at each hop of the call. Additionally, there was lots of background noise when I got connected to a rep. Over this barely usable line, I was now asked to spell out my email address, which naturally took multiple attempts of painfully slow spelling before the rep was able to locate my account. (My very limited knowledge of the NATO alphabet didn't help.) Of course, I then had to go through the spiel of declining alternative offers and providing a reason for my cancellation (all of which I never had to do in Germany before) before they finally confirmed it. Yeah, I'm glad about consumer protection law in the EU.
- sandcat_ 4mo ago
  That’s not true. From mandatory refunds when selling online, to capped credit card fees, to longer warranties, the EU is clearly better for consumer rights. Some US businesses have realized that openly screwing your customers isn’t good business practice, but they’re somewhat of the exception I hear (and a lot of those companies offer the same policies, or better, in the EU, e.g. Costco) Apple is another good example. Their base warranty is two years in the EU versus one year in the US, and there’s additional protection on top in many EU countries that extends it to the expected life of the product, in some cases as long as 5-6 years. And again, all of these are backed up by the law, not just a policy that the company can revoke or decide not to enforce.
  - keiferski 4mo ago
    It seems to me that if there is some sort of law or regulation that can be passed, then that policy will be better in the EU. If the better service is a result of competition, then it will likely be better in the US. In general though, culturally, the US is much more "the customer is always right", whereas in the EU, it's considered a hassle to cater to customers that much. This mentality translates across the economy as a whole. At least that's in my experience of being American and living in the EU for the last 10 years.
    - lazyasciiart 4mo ago
      I have never received cash compensation for a delayed flight in the US, but I have in the EU. In my opinion, in the EU if the business screws up it’s their problem: in the US it is the customers, unless you shop somewhere large enough to voluntarily cover their mistakes. Which is, indeed, one reason that anybody can run a business with nothing in the US.
  - throwaway-blaze 4mo ago
    And all of Apple's products are much more expensive in the EU. In Austria, a MacBook Air starts at EUR1199, and the same device starts at USD1099. At today's exchange rate, that European device costs USD1360, or nearly 20% more. We can argue about the consumer friendliness of the regulations in the EU but they also add demonstrably to the cost of tech products (and likely other categories).
- frugalmail 4mo ago
  This is the result of the US embracing capitalism more than Germany. The market has set minimum expectations, but outliers with other benefits can have an opportunity to thrive until they have an opportunity to meet those minimum expectations. Although, this is rapidly changing. Places like California are putting in similar regulatory barriers and excessive minimum taxation.
logifail 4mo ago
> The US system is built to support entrepreneurship while the EU system broadly is to support the consumer and employee I disagree: the EU system broadly is there to support _the incumbants_ "Regulatory capture" is the less kind way to put it.
- organsnyder 4mo ago
  The US system is biased this way, as well.
- watwut 4mo ago
  US system seems to facilitate quick creation of monopolies and then keeps them in power long term. There is quick competition, winner takes it all and then it is it forever.
  - hyhatqtv 4mo ago
    There are plenty of similar “monopolies” in the EU they just value safely exploiting consumers more than rapid growth. Regardless US tech monopolies are almost as dominant in the EU as in they are in the US”. At least local companies wouldn’t syphon money to a different continent and could be regulated
    - watwut 4mo ago
      American monopolies are not much regulated, they are entirely above the law. The legal system heavily biased toward rich corporations. I did not said europe does not have monopolies. I said America has "winner takes all" economy that systematically creates monopolies everywhere you look. It does not create competition, it creates what you call "incumbent". Americans look down on markets where middle sized companies constanty fight for customers. Great company is the one that has say in goverment, cornered market and trying to make it comply to law is seen as attack.
      - hyhatqtv 4mo ago
        > American monopolies are not much regulated, they are entirely above the law Yeah exactly and they are only barely more regulated in the EU. Apple, Google, Microslop and FB almost completely control their respective markets in the EU to a comparable degree they do in the US. Its still winner takes all. EU might fine them occasionally but that’s just the cost of doing business with hardly any consequences (remember the third part iOS app stores in the EU? I barely do…) Outside of tech there are plenty of homegrown conglomerates and oligopolies in the EU, I don’t see how is there meanimgfully more competition outside of low value added sectors where small/medium companies are fighting for scraps. > Great company is the one that has say in goverment Yeah, exactly the same as in Europe (and unlike in the US there are hardly many alternatives besides going that route if you want to grow signficantly). > trying to make it comply to law is seen as attack. That might be a differentiator, of course companies generally find it less objectionable to comply with laws they had a significant say in writing like in much of Europe.
petesergeant 4mo ago
> the EU system The issue in question is a Germanic system, not an EU one. Outside of Germany, Austria, Luxembourg, most EU countries are far more sensible with capitalization requirements.
bloppe 4mo ago
In a healthy market economy, entrepreneurs are meant to support the consumer, and they do so partly by competing with one another for talent, which requires supporting the employee. We could argue ad nauseam about the health of the US's market economy, but ultimately is has resulted in unignorably higher wages than in Europe, even at the lower end of the economic ladder. This probably also has a lot to do with it's much tighter market integration than the EU, although they seem to be finally addressing that issue with the 28th regime. A popular theory of Europe's historic economic outperformance relative to the rest of the world, leading up to the industrial revolution, relies on competitive market theory: constant warfare spurring innovation, as well as relatively free movement of the best and brightest to seek greener pastures elsewhere on the continent. These days, the most ambitious Europeans tend to move to America to raise money and find talent, and it seems many EU countries are finally waking up to the fact that they need to do better to support entrepreneurship.
- throwaway-blaze 4mo ago
  I would posit that many EU citizens are still living with the idea of their historic economic outperformance even though it has not been true for many years.
- glad_duck 4mo ago
  It depends on the means of production (Marx had the point). One thing is if you want to open a factory, then those regulations and limitations may protect the market, consumers and reduce fraud. If you want to start a software company and sell a smartphone app, that's a very different story. I assume Germany is still in 19th century in this regard, favoring big businesses who don't mind to wait 152 days or more and pay 10K. Modern economy, or at least a big part of it, is more about agility though, for good or for bad.
danmaz74 4mo ago
Even when the UK was in the EU, you could create a limited liability company (LTD) for something like 200 pounds or less, no capital needed. So it's not true at all that setting up a business at a low cost is somehow against EU legislation.
blks 4mo ago
25k requirement doesn’t protect anyone, just prevents regular contractors from easily registering limited liability company.
hyhatqtv 4mo ago
> the EU system Well in this specific case there is no such thing. Laws and regulations vary wildly and there are countries in the EU where you can register a company almost immediately at low cost.

keiferski 4mo ago

I think this is a false dichotomy. Consumer return policies, customer service, etc. tend to be much better in the US than in the EU. I would characterize it rather that the US is pro-business and pro-consumer, but somewhat anti-average worker.

wbl 4mo ago
Except every two weeks when he gets a bigger paycheck than most senior UK government positions
echoangle 4mo ago
> Consumer return policies, customer service, etc. tend to be much better in the US than in the EU. Maybe the ones voluntarily offered by companies, but not the legal ones.
- keiferski 4mo ago
  Not sure if that matters much. Only the actual end result does. The better policies given by US companies is also likely driven by competition, so by definition they wouldn't be something that a government regulation could accomplish (other than to incentivize more competition.)
  - echoangle 4mo ago
    It does because for one you can go to court. If a company stops playing nice because they think you’re defrauding them if you tell them your package went missing during transit, company niceness doesn’t get you anything. (That’s a random example btw, I don’t know how this is handled legally in the US. The point is that there are situations where you actually want the law on your side).
    - keiferski 4mo ago
      Suing people and companies is a national pastime in America. I really don't think the EU has an advantage there...
    - lazyasciiart 4mo ago
      You don’t have to go to court even - there is usually a regulatory body that will enforce these for you. This is the whole reason why there is an image of America as sue-happy: they have chosen a regulatory system of “so sue them” instead of a functioning consumer protection system (or any authority with the ability to enforce the ADA, for example).
9dev 4mo ago
Is that so? In Germany for example, you have a legal right to return anything you purchased via a remote means of communication - so e.g., the internet, or a phone call - free of charge, within two weeks, and it must be simple to do so; if a vendor tries to obfuscate how to cancel a purchase contract, you can simply write them an email.
- keiferski 4mo ago
  yeah most US companies have return policies of 30 days or more, no questions asked.
  - pwinnski 4mo ago
    The word "most" is doing a lot here. Europe guarantees consumer rights by law, while the US relies on companies adopting the practices voluntarily. Most do, but larger companies more universally than smaller, and it's by no means universal.
    - keiferski 4mo ago
      It's the reality for the vast majority of larger companies. Quibbling with word choice is really not a good argument.
      - lompad 4mo ago
        Try canceling your NYT subscription.
        Saline9515 4mo ago
        The same exists in the EU, French Le Monde (NYT local equivalent) required you for a long time to send a registered letter costing 7€ and a trip to the post office to cancel your subscription.
        r4indeer 4mo ago
        Let me support your argument by telling you what you just reminded me of... I was briefly subscribed to the NYT from Germany. To my surprise, I couldn't cancel online, but had to call. (The EU has a law which requires that if you can subscribe online, you must be able to cancel online.) They have national numbers for many countries, but they're just forwarders to the same call center, with notably mangled audio quality presumably due to multiple lossy compression algorithms applied at each hop of the call. Additionally, there was lots of background noise when I got connected to a rep. Over this barely usable line, I was now asked to spell out my email address, which naturally took multiple attempts of painfully slow spelling before the rep was able to locate my account. (My very limited knowledge of the NATO alphabet didn't help.) Of course, I then had to go through the spiel of declining alternative offers and providing a reason for my cancellation (all of which I never had to do in Germany before) before they finally confirmed it. Yeah, I'm glad about consumer protection law in the EU.
sandcat_ 4mo ago
That’s not true. From mandatory refunds when selling online, to capped credit card fees, to longer warranties, the EU is clearly better for consumer rights. Some US businesses have realized that openly screwing your customers isn’t good business practice, but they’re somewhat of the exception I hear (and a lot of those companies offer the same policies, or better, in the EU, e.g. Costco) Apple is another good example. Their base warranty is two years in the EU versus one year in the US, and there’s additional protection on top in many EU countries that extends it to the expected life of the product, in some cases as long as 5-6 years. And again, all of these are backed up by the law, not just a policy that the company can revoke or decide not to enforce.
- keiferski 4mo ago
  It seems to me that if there is some sort of law or regulation that can be passed, then that policy will be better in the EU. If the better service is a result of competition, then it will likely be better in the US. In general though, culturally, the US is much more "the customer is always right", whereas in the EU, it's considered a hassle to cater to customers that much. This mentality translates across the economy as a whole. At least that's in my experience of being American and living in the EU for the last 10 years.
  - lazyasciiart 4mo ago
    I have never received cash compensation for a delayed flight in the US, but I have in the EU. In my opinion, in the EU if the business screws up it’s their problem: in the US it is the customers, unless you shop somewhere large enough to voluntarily cover their mistakes. Which is, indeed, one reason that anybody can run a business with nothing in the US.
- throwaway-blaze 4mo ago
  And all of Apple's products are much more expensive in the EU. In Austria, a MacBook Air starts at EUR1199, and the same device starts at USD1099. At today's exchange rate, that European device costs USD1360, or nearly 20% more. We can argue about the consumer friendliness of the regulations in the EU but they also add demonstrably to the cost of tech products (and likely other categories).
frugalmail 4mo ago
This is the result of the US embracing capitalism more than Germany. The market has set minimum expectations, but outliers with other benefits can have an opportunity to thrive until they have an opportunity to meet those minimum expectations. Although, this is rapidly changing. Places like California are putting in similar regulatory barriers and excessive minimum taxation.

logifail 4mo ago

> The US system is built to support entrepreneurship while the EU system broadly is to support the consumer and employee I disagree: the EU system broadly is there to support _the incumbants_ "Regulatory capture" is the less kind way to put it.

organsnyder 4mo ago
The US system is biased this way, as well.
watwut 4mo ago
US system seems to facilitate quick creation of monopolies and then keeps them in power long term. There is quick competition, winner takes it all and then it is it forever.
- hyhatqtv 4mo ago
  There are plenty of similar “monopolies” in the EU they just value safely exploiting consumers more than rapid growth. Regardless US tech monopolies are almost as dominant in the EU as in they are in the US”. At least local companies wouldn’t syphon money to a different continent and could be regulated
  - watwut 4mo ago
    American monopolies are not much regulated, they are entirely above the law. The legal system heavily biased toward rich corporations. I did not said europe does not have monopolies. I said America has "winner takes all" economy that systematically creates monopolies everywhere you look. It does not create competition, it creates what you call "incumbent". Americans look down on markets where middle sized companies constanty fight for customers. Great company is the one that has say in goverment, cornered market and trying to make it comply to law is seen as attack.
    - hyhatqtv 4mo ago
      > American monopolies are not much regulated, they are entirely above the law Yeah exactly and they are only barely more regulated in the EU. Apple, Google, Microslop and FB almost completely control their respective markets in the EU to a comparable degree they do in the US. Its still winner takes all. EU might fine them occasionally but that’s just the cost of doing business with hardly any consequences (remember the third part iOS app stores in the EU? I barely do…) Outside of tech there are plenty of homegrown conglomerates and oligopolies in the EU, I don’t see how is there meanimgfully more competition outside of low value added sectors where small/medium companies are fighting for scraps. > Great company is the one that has say in goverment Yeah, exactly the same as in Europe (and unlike in the US there are hardly many alternatives besides going that route if you want to grow signficantly). > trying to make it comply to law is seen as attack. That might be a differentiator, of course companies generally find it less objectionable to comply with laws they had a significant say in writing like in much of Europe.

petesergeant 4mo ago

> the EU system The issue in question is a Germanic system, not an EU one. Outside of Germany, Austria, Luxembourg, most EU countries are far more sensible with capitalization requirements.

bloppe 4mo ago

In a healthy market economy, entrepreneurs are meant to support the consumer, and they do so partly by competing with one another for talent, which requires supporting the employee. We could argue ad nauseam about the health of the US's market economy, but ultimately is has resulted in unignorably higher wages than in Europe, even at the lower end of the economic ladder. This probably also has a lot to do with it's much tighter market integration than the EU, although they seem to be finally addressing that issue with the 28th regime. A popular theory of Europe's historic economic outperformance relative to the rest of the world, leading up to the industrial revolution, relies on competitive market theory: constant warfare spurring innovation, as well as relatively free movement of the best and brightest to seek greener pastures elsewhere on the continent. These days, the most ambitious Europeans tend to move to America to raise money and find talent, and it seems many EU countries are finally waking up to the fact that they need to do better to support entrepreneurship.

throwaway-blaze 4mo ago
I would posit that many EU citizens are still living with the idea of their historic economic outperformance even though it has not been true for many years.
glad_duck 4mo ago
It depends on the means of production (Marx had the point). One thing is if you want to open a factory, then those regulations and limitations may protect the market, consumers and reduce fraud. If you want to start a software company and sell a smartphone app, that's a very different story. I assume Germany is still in 19th century in this regard, favoring big businesses who don't mind to wait 152 days or more and pay 10K. Modern economy, or at least a big part of it, is more about agility though, for good or for bad.

danmaz74 4mo ago

Even when the UK was in the EU, you could create a limited liability company (LTD) for something like 200 pounds or less, no capital needed. So it's not true at all that setting up a business at a low cost is somehow against EU legislation.

blks 4mo ago

25k requirement doesn’t protect anyone, just prevents regular contractors from easily registering limited liability company.

hyhatqtv 4mo ago

> the EU system Well in this specific case there is no such thing. Laws and regulations vary wildly and there are countries in the EU where you can register a company almost immediately at low cost.