3 ms·

If they are still a German tax resident , they are committing tax evasion . § 1 Abs. 1 KStG

noxvilleza 3mo ago
What if there were multiple (2+) founders of a company, and some lived in Estonia? I think in one case they had a Croatian co-founder as well.
- ExpertAdvisor01 3mo ago
  This will most likely result in Permanent establishment (PE) in Germany (e.g due to fixed place of business). That means Germany will tax the company anything which is attributable to the German guy.
egorfine 3mo ago
It doesn't really matter. If you do business in Germany you are evading taxes just by the fact of doing business. Everything and anything you make belongs to the government. It is an unfortunate loophole in the law that temporarily permits you to steal some of your profit back from the government where it rightfully belongs. Yeah, this is sarcasm, but not really. The practical reality is that it simply makes no sense to incorporate in Germany. For example, the OP missed six months of opportunity just to please the bureaucracy and it's not even the end of it.
- ExpertAdvisor01 3mo ago
  If you don't like the laws/rules then just leave Germany . There is no justification for tax evasion .
  - blacklion 3mo ago
    It is how Russia become what it is: we all be said «If you don't like new law/regulation, go to your beloved USA, you are not a patriot and must be punished». I'm sorry, but Germany is democratic country, and citizen of the country can choose by definition. Leave your motherland because your government is crazy in one way or another? It is nonsense. In reality, sometimes people need to do it (because it becomes too dangerous to stay), but it should not be this way. In any country.
  - egorfine 3mo ago
    > If you don't like the laws/rules then just leave Germany Or change something. But yeah, I agree that leaving a country that you don't like is a good solution. I did that myself. > There is no justification for tax evasion The basics of philosophy behind taxation state exactly the opposite: it is an obligation of a business to evade as much tax as possible - as long as it is legal.
    - ExpertAdvisor01 3mo ago
      What you describe is tax avoidance and not evasion. Tax evasion is always illegal.
      - egorfine 3mo ago
        As I see it, the general philosophy of taxation in old Europe is this: any euro that you take home is a theft of state money. Ideally you should pay 100% of your income and then some. It's okay to receive salary though.
        blacklion 3mo ago
        > It's okay to receive salary though. Are you sure? I'm paying 48% as income tax, and then 21% as VAT and some additional taxes on gasoline, electricity, LPG, car, motorcycle, house and water. Additionally I'm forced to buy health insurance and cannot pay for medicine out of my pocket, insurance is only way to go. If I invest my money (buy ETF, for example) I need to pay tax on imputed income over my open positions on the stock market (no matter, goes actions/ETFs/options up or down, I pay for open positions, not for my income from these positions). If I have more than 57K€ in the bank (with 0.5% interest when official inflation rate is about 4% and real one is more like 10-12%) I need to pay tax on that money (not for the interest earned, but for sum on the account!). Looks like it is not Ok to receive salary if it is a notch above poverty level, too. Oh, and now I need to pay duties (on top of VAT) on each purchase in non-EU internet shop, no matter how cheap it is, and there is minimal duty 4€ per item. So, buying something small but unique on AliExpress is very costly too. And it is not protection of local brands — because almost nothing is produced here, especially for DIY hobbies (my case, but I'm sure everybody can name other group of goods which has good selection over aboard). I've get free samples of some technical fabrics from USA (could you buy then in EU, by meter and as privet persond and not a business? Nope) and payed 14€ to the state: like 2€ VAT on FedEx shipping costs (goods are FREE!) and 12€ fix to process this transaction. And, no, it is not FedEx fee, it is local custom fee, it it the same for official national post service. Nicccccce.
- esterna 3mo ago
  While I won't dispute that 6 months is outrageous, OP has not spent them to "please the bureaucracy", they spent them to escape personal liability should the company go bankrupt. The rest of the post is bemoaning the fact the German government won't let them also permanently reduce the company liability below 25k.
- notanormalnerd 3mo ago
  > OP missed six months of opportunity OP missed six months of opportunities because he is an idiot, that has been scammed by a tax consultancy that is interested in his money. He should have setup a UG, start the business and invest into building a GmbH.

What if there were multiple (2+) founders of a company, and some lived in Estonia? I think in one case they had a Croatian co-founder as well.

ExpertAdvisor01 3mo ago
This will most likely result in Permanent establishment (PE) in Germany (e.g due to fixed place of business). That means Germany will tax the company anything which is attributable to the German guy.

egorfine 3mo ago

It doesn't really matter. If you do business in Germany you are evading taxes just by the fact of doing business. Everything and anything you make belongs to the government. It is an unfortunate loophole in the law that temporarily permits you to steal some of your profit back from the government where it rightfully belongs. Yeah, this is sarcasm, but not really. The practical reality is that it simply makes no sense to incorporate in Germany. For example, the OP missed six months of opportunity just to please the bureaucracy and it's not even the end of it.

ExpertAdvisor01 3mo ago
If you don't like the laws/rules then just leave Germany . There is no justification for tax evasion .
- blacklion 3mo ago
  It is how Russia become what it is: we all be said «If you don't like new law/regulation, go to your beloved USA, you are not a patriot and must be punished». I'm sorry, but Germany is democratic country, and citizen of the country can choose by definition. Leave your motherland because your government is crazy in one way or another? It is nonsense. In reality, sometimes people need to do it (because it becomes too dangerous to stay), but it should not be this way. In any country.
- egorfine 3mo ago
  > If you don't like the laws/rules then just leave Germany Or change something. But yeah, I agree that leaving a country that you don't like is a good solution. I did that myself. > There is no justification for tax evasion The basics of philosophy behind taxation state exactly the opposite: it is an obligation of a business to evade as much tax as possible - as long as it is legal.
  - ExpertAdvisor01 3mo ago
    What you describe is tax avoidance and not evasion. Tax evasion is always illegal.
    - egorfine 3mo ago
      As I see it, the general philosophy of taxation in old Europe is this: any euro that you take home is a theft of state money. Ideally you should pay 100% of your income and then some. It's okay to receive salary though.
      - blacklion 3mo ago
        > It's okay to receive salary though. Are you sure? I'm paying 48% as income tax, and then 21% as VAT and some additional taxes on gasoline, electricity, LPG, car, motorcycle, house and water. Additionally I'm forced to buy health insurance and cannot pay for medicine out of my pocket, insurance is only way to go. If I invest my money (buy ETF, for example) I need to pay tax on imputed income over my open positions on the stock market (no matter, goes actions/ETFs/options up or down, I pay for open positions, not for my income from these positions). If I have more than 57K€ in the bank (with 0.5% interest when official inflation rate is about 4% and real one is more like 10-12%) I need to pay tax on that money (not for the interest earned, but for sum on the account!). Looks like it is not Ok to receive salary if it is a notch above poverty level, too. Oh, and now I need to pay duties (on top of VAT) on each purchase in non-EU internet shop, no matter how cheap it is, and there is minimal duty 4€ per item. So, buying something small but unique on AliExpress is very costly too. And it is not protection of local brands — because almost nothing is produced here, especially for DIY hobbies (my case, but I'm sure everybody can name other group of goods which has good selection over aboard). I've get free samples of some technical fabrics from USA (could you buy then in EU, by meter and as privet persond and not a business? Nope) and payed 14€ to the state: like 2€ VAT on FedEx shipping costs (goods are FREE!) and 12€ fix to process this transaction. And, no, it is not FedEx fee, it is local custom fee, it it the same for official national post service. Nicccccce.
esterna 3mo ago
While I won't dispute that 6 months is outrageous, OP has not spent them to "please the bureaucracy", they spent them to escape personal liability should the company go bankrupt. The rest of the post is bemoaning the fact the German government won't let them also permanently reduce the company liability below 25k.
notanormalnerd 3mo ago
> OP missed six months of opportunity OP missed six months of opportunities because he is an idiot, that has been scammed by a tax consultancy that is interested in his money. He should have setup a UG, start the business and invest into building a GmbH.