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These comments of mine were valued by HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4631280 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4631280 http://news.ycombinator.com/

• mseebach 14y ago
  For the downvoted (not "punished") comments: 1 (FizzBuzz): You're responding to a strawman ("unrealistic audition programming for a live audience") and dismissing, rather than responding to the very point the article makes at great length ("Perhaps the hiring pool really is that bad"). I wouldn't have voted it down, but it's honestly not much of a value-add. 2 (Craigslist middleman): Again, I wouldn't have downvoted, but you're being assertive for one side in the debate without backing your assertion by reasoning or arguments. Also, it might just be me, but I catch a whiff of aggression in your comment. 3 (same thread): You're aggressive and you're asserting that some nefarious secrecy is going on, when no-one else has claimed that. Granted, in both of 2 and 3, there's a likelihood of you being voted down because it's a story about an entrepreneurial guy doing well, and you disagreeing with the legitimacy of what he's doing. This is a very entrepreneurial forum, so there's a bias against that.
  • brudgers 14y ago
    "downvoted (not "punished")" Downvotes which one feels are unwarranted are best considered editorial feedback. Take them as evidence that your writing did not match the expectations of the audience which received it. This may be due to misassumptions about the nature of the audience, or due to a miscommunication of the point one is trying to make. The solution to downvotes one feels are unwarranted is improving one's writing.
    • jccc 14y ago
      I apologize -- I meant "punished" somewhat poetically. I meant only to convey that HN had shunned my comments with downvotes, fading those comments into the background of the page. The point is that I am questioning what those expectations of the audience are. If you have read those threads, preferably in context, would you mind giving me your own personal judgement about whether or not my voice in those discussions is unwelcome or should be removed from the room? Particularly when set aside those comments of mine that were deemed to be welcome?
      • brudgers 14y ago
        I'm not saying punishment doesn't happen. But the relevant questions are: How could your posts have been better written? Was their content thoughtful enough to be worth submitting in the first place (or not deleting after having been posted)? As I said, take the votes as editorial feedback, and karma as a reflection of the quality of the writing not the author. Before posting the grandparent, I gave the links a cursory review. It was pretty clear that there was nothing outstandingly insightful about the comments. There was a bit of meanness, however. Their tone was a bit argumentative without being informative, as well. All one can do is support their writing with effort and bounce back from mistakes and rejection as an author. [Edit] I will add that comments do get systematically downvoted in a thread when someone disagrees. This morning, all my comments in this thread were downvoted by one, in a very short period of time. It is not unsurprising given what I compared and the entity I criticized. If I was certain I had never done the same thing, I might complain about it. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4864977 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4864977 But I think I might have had a bad day, myself.
  • jccc 14y ago
    From my FizzBuzz comment: "I do not object to the broad points being made here." I am not dismissing anything, I am agreeing. I am then trying to add what I believe is a very important problem being missed -- that there are many valuable developers whose personalities mean they will do very badly on a timed paper-programming test in the midst of an interview. Testing of this kind is deeply unfair to them, and deceives the tester. I'm sorry if you feel that's not much of a value-add. I disagree. Granted, in both of 2 and 3, there's a likelihood of you being voted down because it's a story about an entrepreneurial guy doing well, and you disagreeing with the legitimacy of what he's doing. This is a very entrepreneurial forum, so there's a bias against that. It's difficult for me to imagine anyone reading those threads and missing that conclusion. It seems to me that it is the primary driver.
    • mseebach 14y ago
      I'm not going to enter into a discussion that belongs on those other threads, I'm trying, as a relative long-timer to explain how I read your posts. Of course you think your posts are value adding, otherwise you wouldn't write them. I'm trying to explain why they might not be understood as such. The fact that you write "I agree with the broad points" doesn't change the fact that your comment disagrees with the broad point (that FizzBuzz is a good and useful test). Also, the bit you quote seems unrelated to your concerns. How do you disagree with the interpretation that 40% passed the test? Any interview situation is "for an audience" and stressful. Not testing actual coding (rather that talky-talky skill) is deeply unfair to those many talented coders who are not great sales people. For two and three, the comments are still not good ones, they're just further being ill-considered because of the bias. There are plenty of good comments that go against the bias of this site, but still get upvotes, because they're good.
      • jccc 14y ago
        I won't argue that other thread either, but we do have a good case about HN behavior that's on-topic here. The broad point of the article was that FizzBuzz (still) reveals an amazing number of unqualified applicants. "Why, look what happens when we do FizzBuzz... You should too." I did not disagree that FizzBuzz does that very thing. My objection was this: "Only 40% of programmers could correctly write out a FizzBuzz program on paper during our timed test in the middle of a job interview" is not equivalent to "Only 40% of applicants even have the skill to code FizzBuzz." The difference between the two is vital in a way many people here don't see, or at least won't acknowledge. That was the subject of my comment. Maybe entrepreneurial types are fundamentally more at ease with that kind of thing than coders who aren't wired that way. I don't know how to enable you to see into that blind spot. I could try, in a meaningful back-and-forth with those who disagree with me. But to simply dismiss my initial objection outright, as something that doesn't even belong in the conversation? To employ HN moderation that sidelines it so it won't be seen? That leaves nowhere to begin. I value being able to argue with intelligent, tech-minded people who disagree with me. It matters so much to me that there be an online venue like HN to meet unfamiliar points of view, to test my own biases, to figure out how I actually see things by engaging in meaningful debate. But we can't have such a low tolerance for disagreement and for challenges to biases that a whiff of a problem with someone's tone makes that person's words seem "mean." We can't be so quick to silence people at square one just because we don't (yet) see their point. Please believe me that this is sincere and not pedantic. I just want to be clear: When you compare the first set of three comments above with the second, you really see the first as more valuable to HN than the second? Let's agree that no submission or comment is going to be all bad or all good and that we won't quibble about details. On balance, you would say the second set is unwelcome when compared with the first?
• erichocean 14y ago
  I started monitoring recent posts (including this one) for downvotes awhile ago. Whenever I get one, regardless of how many upvotes I've gotten, I delete the post immediately. Sometimes, I'll also delete any other recent posts done in the same reading session, if they're of a similar quality. This had the effect, over time, of increasing my karma. It also caused me to write things that are generally uncontroversial and, well, bland.
  • mseebach 14y ago
    Don't do that. First, I've done many comments that get a single downvote to 0. Typically, it's a little controversial/against the grain, and it gets the "disagree" downvote. Those are typically voted back up to 1 pretty quickly (I also make a point of upvoting posts that have clearly been disagree-downvoted, even if I wouldn't otherwise have upvoted it). Second, there's the point of HN karma, especially of the magnitude that can never reach the leaderboard, is completely worthless. I'm sure being on the leaderboard (ie. minor HN royalty) can open some doors, if you want it to, but yours and mine never will.