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[flagged]

by sph 4mo ago

[flagged]

reenorap 4mo ago
[flagged]
- inigyou 4mo ago
  There's no European law against AC. It's just expensive energy because it's got carbon taxes in it.
  - ianm218 4mo ago
    There are atleast some restrictions in localities I.e. https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/12/portofino-air-con-crackdown-neighbours-italy https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/12/portof... or parts of Portugal. Also at a certain point if you ban or heavily restrict energy production to the point that no one can afford to run AC, it is a de facto ban.
    - deleted 4mo ago
      [deleted]
    - rwmj 4mo ago
      Sure, HOAs are a nuisance in the US too.
  - BoingBoomTschak 4mo ago
    At least here in France, there are laws about energy efficiency (RT 2012) of new constructions practically forbidding AC. The loophole used by people with a brain is to install a "can be made reversible later" AC and to enable the cold function later on.
- rwmj 4mo ago
  Sorry what? There's no reason that you can't install AC in your home/office in Europe, and many are doing so. It just hasn't been needed very much til recently.
  - dranudin 4mo ago
    There is, unfortunately. You cannot install AC, with an outside unit, without approval of your landlord. Lots of people are renting, e.g in Germany. Of course, one can get an indoor unit an seal the window. But it is heavy and takes up a lot of space in a small urban rental..
    - rwmj 4mo ago
      Changing the goalposts. We've gone from saying that Europe has (never defined) laws that prevent anyone from installing AC, to saying that tenants cannot make major changes to their properties. Landlords can install AC fine. Home owners can install AC. There are no laws that prevent installation of AC in Europe.
      - dranudin 4mo ago
        I don't think it is changing the goalpost. The law prevents more than half of Germany's inhabitants from installing ACs, because they are renters. Also landlords cannot just install AC just fine. If you just own an appartement, you need the consenst of all other owners in the building. This is also a law. Therefore, practically no landlord will agree to the request to install outside AC, unfortunately.
        rwmj 4mo ago
        It sounds like a case for having more laws / regulation. Rental properties should have a maximum temperature, else they're not liveable (same as if they were damp or infested).
    - vanviegen 4mo ago
      Are renters in the US specifically permitted by law to install airco units that require permanent modification to the property? Or are landlords mandated to install airco units on a renters request? Or..?
      - 4mo ago
alephnerd 4mo ago
> To hear Americans jump at the chance to comment about Europeans and their AC usage A lot of Americans would be indifferent if it wasn't for Europeans (mostly Germans ime - Southern, Central, and Eastern Europeans are indifferent to supportive) who often try to act all superior about not using ACs or heat pumps because they supposedly "cause colds" or are somehow "unnatural" or try to make it a moral action despite a large portion of Americans using GreenTech to subsidize AC spend. TBH, a lot of distaste Americans have for "Europeans" is basically a distaste for DACH residents weird sense of superiority (especially racial - you guys don't realize it but you tend to treat Black, Asian, and Hispanic Americans negatively until we wave our passport and Amex Gold/Plat). Most other Europeans are much more pleasant to be around with.
- bvanheu 4mo ago
  I think USA'n suffers more from discomfort than European, and the gp comment is an attempt at explaining that. this is also my experience as a north American, sweating is a no-go and they clutch AC at 18C.
rootusrootus 4mo ago
[flagged]
CaptWorld 4mo ago
Not beating the allegations of Europoor mentality. I'm not from USA
- mschild 4mo ago
  Price, mostly, isn't the issue. Living in Germany, rental apartments simply don't have AC. Even luxury apartments that are 4k+ per month typically dont. Thats changing very slowly but still a long way to go. A lot of landlords simply don't give a shit as they're not required to install one and since there is a housing shortage, good luck convincing them of anything. Even if you own your apartment, installing a split AC requires unanimous approval from the other apartment owners before you can install one because making any permanent modifications to the outside of the building (like drilling a hole) needs their permission. The older generation (generalising here) often has the opinion that the cold air from ACs is unhealthy and causes cold. Once you get past all of that, is when price can become the issue. The AC units, even top-of-the-line, cost around 1k-1.8k. Good luck finding someone to install it for you. You need an electrician and a licenced installer. I own my house so I dont need anyone's permission. The cheapest total cost (including the 1.2k for the unit I want) is 6k. Because apparently drilling 2 holes and, running the wire and coolant pipes is 4.8k.
  - lwansbrough 4mo ago
    You can buy a portable unit for like 300e and seal the window with a piece of plexiglass with a hole in it. It's a pretty low barrier.
    - mschild 4mo ago
      Sort of. We dont have sliding windows. Windows tilt in Germany so it's a weird shape you need to close up. Portable ACs come with a mesh cover that works OK but its not as good as a properly sealed window. They're also significantly less efficient and much louder. Midea has released the Porta split a few hears ago which was a game changer for many people. I currently have one cooling the bedroom.
megacelebi 4mo ago
[flagged]
- wahnfrieden 4mo ago
  They do. Heat related deaths are reported differently
  - ajmurmann 4mo ago
    Isn't it that European numbers show excess deaths whereas US numbers are for cases where it was officially recorded as a heat death?
    - wahnfrieden 4mo ago
      Yes
ActorNightly 4mo ago
> us simply cannot have AC Im really curious how this works. Do standalone units not exist?
- hannasm 4mo ago
  Same question. Electricity and logistics are really the only physical barriers. With solar and a single mini split couldn't you essentially prevent heat death with some very high probability? Freezing to death in winter should be a harder problem at this point right?
  - doikor 4mo ago
    Electricity and logistics solve the heating just as well. You can use the same device if you want to. Heat pump is just an AC run in reverse, literally all you need is a little valve to reverse the flow.
    - TylerE 4mo ago
      As long as it's only a little below freezing. Try that in Norway, or even somewhere like Austria, and see how it goes.
      - asdff 4mo ago
        Then you'd just use "old fashioned" electric heating
      - doikor 4mo ago
        They work just fine until -25C or so. (COP around 3). After they they still do work you just fine but work effectively as resistive heaters as you approach COP of 1. Obviously you need a model they is made for which winters but people use them all over Finland including Lapland without any issues. If you want to save some money on the coldest days you burn some wood in the oven/fireplace if you have one. edit: heat pumps (both air and ground) have been very popular in the nordics for quite some time now. One big reason is that we have cheap electricity and very expensive oil/gas. Lately also municipal level central heating networks have been slowly moving to heat pumps as their source of heat.
aaron695 4mo ago
[dead]
shshjsjsjzjz 4mo ago
[flagged]
tgsovlerkhgsel 4mo ago
"Simply cannot have AC" is a problem we did to ourselves, or rather, the "its not so bad just suffer a bit" people are doing to the rest of the population. What are the reasons "most of us simply cannot have AC"? Either laws/regulations banning it or making it prohibitive, or living in rentals without proper protection. There is no reason why heat protection couldn't be mandated for rental units just like heating is required in winter. Or why tenants couldn't have a right to install AC at their own expense. Meanwhile, because permanent AC units are de facto impossible, the portable Mideas sell out as soon as the heat wave hits, and we're forced to run air conditioners with literally open windows just so we can run the hose through. (You should get one for next year, by the way. You probably missed the opportunity for this year unless you want to pay a scalper 2-3x the normal price, but they can be installed in essentially any window or balcony, are reasonably quiet, much better than the 'air hose out the window' monoblock units, and they fucking work)
lwansbrough 4mo ago
I realize you're aiming at Americans in general, but I'm Canadian. Most developed countries outside of Europe have AC readily available these days. The governance is a reflection of the people. Same can be said about the Americans.
- sph 4mo ago
  > I realize you're aiming at Americans in general, but I'm Canadian. Same difference.
europoorean 4mo ago
Heat affects the old disproportionately. Europeans have years of extra life expectancy (look at the Mediterranean countries, affected by the heat). It is not unexpected that more, older Europeans die during a heatwave. The Americans that would have died during a heatwave are already dead due to other causes. The AC debate is not an honest one (or just an ignorant take). I really hope Americans can.fix their healthcare system.

[flagged]

by sph 4mo ago

[flagged]

reenorap 4mo ago

[flagged]

inigyou 4mo ago
There's no European law against AC. It's just expensive energy because it's got carbon taxes in it.
- ianm218 4mo ago
  There are atleast some restrictions in localities I.e. https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/12/portofino-air-con-crackdown-neighbours-italy https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/12/portof... or parts of Portugal. Also at a certain point if you ban or heavily restrict energy production to the point that no one can afford to run AC, it is a de facto ban.
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
  - rwmj 4mo ago
    Sure, HOAs are a nuisance in the US too.
- BoingBoomTschak 4mo ago
  At least here in France, there are laws about energy efficiency (RT 2012) of new constructions practically forbidding AC. The loophole used by people with a brain is to install a "can be made reversible later" AC and to enable the cold function later on.
rwmj 4mo ago
Sorry what? There's no reason that you can't install AC in your home/office in Europe, and many are doing so. It just hasn't been needed very much til recently.
- dranudin 4mo ago
  There is, unfortunately. You cannot install AC, with an outside unit, without approval of your landlord. Lots of people are renting, e.g in Germany. Of course, one can get an indoor unit an seal the window. But it is heavy and takes up a lot of space in a small urban rental..
  - rwmj 4mo ago
    Changing the goalposts. We've gone from saying that Europe has (never defined) laws that prevent anyone from installing AC, to saying that tenants cannot make major changes to their properties. Landlords can install AC fine. Home owners can install AC. There are no laws that prevent installation of AC in Europe.
    - dranudin 4mo ago
      I don't think it is changing the goalpost. The law prevents more than half of Germany's inhabitants from installing ACs, because they are renters. Also landlords cannot just install AC just fine. If you just own an appartement, you need the consenst of all other owners in the building. This is also a law. Therefore, practically no landlord will agree to the request to install outside AC, unfortunately.
      - rwmj 4mo ago
        It sounds like a case for having more laws / regulation. Rental properties should have a maximum temperature, else they're not liveable (same as if they were damp or infested).
  - vanviegen 4mo ago
    Are renters in the US specifically permitted by law to install airco units that require permanent modification to the property? Or are landlords mandated to install airco units on a renters request? Or..?
    - 4mo ago

alephnerd 4mo ago

> To hear Americans jump at the chance to comment about Europeans and their AC usage A lot of Americans would be indifferent if it wasn't for Europeans (mostly Germans ime - Southern, Central, and Eastern Europeans are indifferent to supportive) who often try to act all superior about not using ACs or heat pumps because they supposedly "cause colds" or are somehow "unnatural" or try to make it a moral action despite a large portion of Americans using GreenTech to subsidize AC spend. TBH, a lot of distaste Americans have for "Europeans" is basically a distaste for DACH residents weird sense of superiority (especially racial - you guys don't realize it but you tend to treat Black, Asian, and Hispanic Americans negatively until we wave our passport and Amex Gold/Plat). Most other Europeans are much more pleasant to be around with.

bvanheu 4mo ago
I think USA'n suffers more from discomfort than European, and the gp comment is an attempt at explaining that. this is also my experience as a north American, sweating is a no-go and they clutch AC at 18C.

rootusrootus 4mo ago

[flagged]

CaptWorld 4mo ago

Not beating the allegations of Europoor mentality. I'm not from USA

mschild 4mo ago
Price, mostly, isn't the issue. Living in Germany, rental apartments simply don't have AC. Even luxury apartments that are 4k+ per month typically dont. Thats changing very slowly but still a long way to go. A lot of landlords simply don't give a shit as they're not required to install one and since there is a housing shortage, good luck convincing them of anything. Even if you own your apartment, installing a split AC requires unanimous approval from the other apartment owners before you can install one because making any permanent modifications to the outside of the building (like drilling a hole) needs their permission. The older generation (generalising here) often has the opinion that the cold air from ACs is unhealthy and causes cold. Once you get past all of that, is when price can become the issue. The AC units, even top-of-the-line, cost around 1k-1.8k. Good luck finding someone to install it for you. You need an electrician and a licenced installer. I own my house so I dont need anyone's permission. The cheapest total cost (including the 1.2k for the unit I want) is 6k. Because apparently drilling 2 holes and, running the wire and coolant pipes is 4.8k.
- lwansbrough 4mo ago
  You can buy a portable unit for like 300e and seal the window with a piece of plexiglass with a hole in it. It's a pretty low barrier.
  - mschild 4mo ago
    Sort of. We dont have sliding windows. Windows tilt in Germany so it's a weird shape you need to close up. Portable ACs come with a mesh cover that works OK but its not as good as a properly sealed window. They're also significantly less efficient and much louder. Midea has released the Porta split a few hears ago which was a game changer for many people. I currently have one cooling the bedroom.

megacelebi 4mo ago

[flagged]

wahnfrieden 4mo ago
They do. Heat related deaths are reported differently
- ajmurmann 4mo ago
  Isn't it that European numbers show excess deaths whereas US numbers are for cases where it was officially recorded as a heat death?
  - wahnfrieden 4mo ago
    Yes

ActorNightly 4mo ago

> us simply cannot have AC Im really curious how this works. Do standalone units not exist?

hannasm 4mo ago
Same question. Electricity and logistics are really the only physical barriers. With solar and a single mini split couldn't you essentially prevent heat death with some very high probability? Freezing to death in winter should be a harder problem at this point right?
- doikor 4mo ago
  Electricity and logistics solve the heating just as well. You can use the same device if you want to. Heat pump is just an AC run in reverse, literally all you need is a little valve to reverse the flow.
  - TylerE 4mo ago
    As long as it's only a little below freezing. Try that in Norway, or even somewhere like Austria, and see how it goes.
    - asdff 4mo ago
      Then you'd just use "old fashioned" electric heating
    - doikor 4mo ago
      They work just fine until -25C or so. (COP around 3). After they they still do work you just fine but work effectively as resistive heaters as you approach COP of 1. Obviously you need a model they is made for which winters but people use them all over Finland including Lapland without any issues. If you want to save some money on the coldest days you burn some wood in the oven/fireplace if you have one. edit: heat pumps (both air and ground) have been very popular in the nordics for quite some time now. One big reason is that we have cheap electricity and very expensive oil/gas. Lately also municipal level central heating networks have been slowly moving to heat pumps as their source of heat.

aaron695 4mo ago

[dead]

shshjsjsjzjz 4mo ago

[flagged]

tgsovlerkhgsel 4mo ago

"Simply cannot have AC" is a problem we did to ourselves, or rather, the "its not so bad just suffer a bit" people are doing to the rest of the population. What are the reasons "most of us simply cannot have AC"? Either laws/regulations banning it or making it prohibitive, or living in rentals without proper protection. There is no reason why heat protection couldn't be mandated for rental units just like heating is required in winter. Or why tenants couldn't have a right to install AC at their own expense. Meanwhile, because permanent AC units are de facto impossible, the portable Mideas sell out as soon as the heat wave hits, and we're forced to run air conditioners with literally open windows just so we can run the hose through. (You should get one for next year, by the way. You probably missed the opportunity for this year unless you want to pay a scalper 2-3x the normal price, but they can be installed in essentially any window or balcony, are reasonably quiet, much better than the 'air hose out the window' monoblock units, and they fucking work)

lwansbrough 4mo ago

I realize you're aiming at Americans in general, but I'm Canadian. Most developed countries outside of Europe have AC readily available these days. The governance is a reflection of the people. Same can be said about the Americans.

sph 4mo ago
> I realize you're aiming at Americans in general, but I'm Canadian. Same difference.

europoorean 4mo ago

Heat affects the old disproportionately. Europeans have years of extra life expectancy (look at the Mediterranean countries, affected by the heat). It is not unexpected that more, older Europeans die during a heatwave. The Americans that would have died during a heatwave are already dead due to other causes. The AC debate is not an honest one (or just an ignorant take). I really hope Americans can.fix their healthcare system.