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I think there's an ethical difference between "we need to wage war on a densely populated area", and "we need to wage war on a densely populated area, let's mak
by gershy 4mo ago
I think there's an ethical difference between "we need to wage war on a densely populated area", and "we need to wage war on a densely populated area, let's make sure to harm the vulnerable people we encounter there". This is what I'm trying to differentiate between.
- andriy_koval 4mo agoWe won't know without analyzing protocols how Israel picks targets. Also, harming civilians is the norm in modern world. Russia absolutely deliberately is targeting critical civilian infra in Ukraine (e.g. grid during cold winter).
- t0mpr1c3 4mo agoIf the effect of your actions is a war crime, you are a war criminal. If the Russians also do it, that is additional evidence of war crimes.
- andriy_koval 4mo ago> If the effect of your actions is a war crime, you are a war criminal. war crimes usually defined by intent: were civilians targeted intentionally.
- Computer0 4mo agoWere civilians targeted intentionally on 9/11? Or was it just a targeted assassination strike on some bankers? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13_July_2024_al-Mawasi_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13_July_2024_al-Mawasi_attack) If I am attacked and legally have the right to self defense, but kill the neighbors "in the process of" defending myself because I fired 300 rounds at the attacker. Is that okay? I didn't do it "intentionally". But it is convenient that I hate them.
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- gershy 4mo agoWe likely agree that individual military strikes ought to aim for collateral damage proportional to their war value. For example a strike with potential to kill enemy leadership (rapidly accelerating the end of the overall war) can justify high collateral damage, much higher than would be justified by a strike against frontline troops. With this in mind, I don't follow your example at all. Are those bankers of wartime value? And if they are, is the collateral damage proportional to that value? It's possible there's a lot I don't know about those banker's links to military!
- gershy 4mo agoBut of course you're not arguing that collateral damage proves war crime?
- t0mpr1c3 4mo agoI would expect the UN to investigate what the IDF defines as collateral damage and draw their own conclusion. Their conclusion is genocide. I'm not sure all the facts are in yet in relation to Ukraine, but I do not anticipate that Putin will be getting his yacht back in the immediate future.
- andriy_koval 4mo agoWould you accept opinion that UN is politicized org which does work of varying quality and its conclusion can't be accepted as ground truth without trivial checks?
- t0mpr1c3 4mo agoI do not accept your opinion, or assertion, that "harming civilians is the norm" nor the implication that normative violence serves as any kind of license or justification.
- andriy_koval 4mo agoHarming civilians is absolutely the norm in warfare through all humans history, all/most nations including likely yours practiced it in multiple points of time. Its also norm pretending that its bad while actually practicing it. The question was specifically about genocide allegations, and blind trust in UN sub-orgs reports.
- gershy 4mo agoNote "the UN" has no unified voice on an absence or presence of genocide - instead it's voiced by individual UN inquiries. Only the ICJ can legally convict a state of violating the genocide convention.