3 ms·

I don't have numbers for you, but I do know that every European I know is much more worried about card fraud than the Americans I know. One quick example is tha

by larkost 3mo ago

I don't have numbers for you, but I do know that every European I know is much more worried about card fraud than the Americans I know. One quick example is that the Europeans get very nervous when the waiter takes the credit card away from the table in the U.S.. This is just not done in Europe because there is a (at least perceived) history of skimming in much of Europe. One big difference is that in the U.S. cardholders are largely protected from credit card fraud (not debit card fraud), so the card vendors have to take the risk and so have robust anti-fraud measures (both before and after payment). Largely it is the merchants who have to prove that there was no fraud. Whereas in Europe the burden of evidence (not proof) is with the cardholder.

Hikikomori 3mo ago
Taking a card away from the table is weird for us because it's not what we do here so it becomes suspicious. Even so skimming is much less of a problem since chip and pin were introduced. Nobody I know has had any issues with fraud. We also require 2fa for online purchases. There's also a large difference between counties. In the Nordics its ubiquitous, I haven't carried or needed cash for almost 20 years. Meanwhile Germany has barely started to use cards.
Rexxar 3mo ago
It's seem completely crazy to me to give your card to a waiter.
lxgr 3mo ago
Yes, because handing over your card to a stranger is considered a fairly crazy thing to do in most countries other than the US, as cards require PIN entry for most transactions (which actually does meaningfully prevent in-person card fraud). In the US, you simply have no choice if you want to eat in a restaurant, so people are used to it. I'd expect total skimming rates to be higher in the US, since magnetic stripe transactions have been phased out in effectively all other countries. People don't care because they don't directly pay for the resulting fraud out of pocket. As a society, of course everybody still pays for it. > Largely it is the merchants who have to prove that there was no fraud No, in-store, it's the issuing bank that's liable, even in the US (unless the card is PIN-preferring, which is usually only true for foreign cards).
orf 3mo ago
US card fraud rate is significantly higher than in the EU. In 2015 it was about 0.042% in the EU, vs 0.1388% for the US. The 2021 rates for the EU fell to ~0.028%. You get nervous about giving your card to a waiter because you’re in a foreign place with a nonsense payment system worst than most developing countries and it’s not something you’re ever asked to do anywhere else.
rsynnott 3mo ago
> One quick example is that the Europeans get very nervous when the waiter takes the credit card away from the table in the U.S.. This is just not done in Europe because there is a (at least perceived) history of skimming in much of Europe. ... No. It's just not done in Europe because it is _not permitted_. Chip and pin was made mandatory decades ago, and for that the cardholder must be present. It's not unreasonable to be disconcerted when something which just doesn't happen in your experience (the waiter takes your card away!) happens. Skimming is also mostly now a US thing, as non-US cards no longer require a magnetic stripe at all (the only US has a stay of execution; Mastercard plans to completely phase out magstripes by 2033, and I think Visa is similar). The US has _far_ more card fraud than the EU (about $15bn vs $1.5bn/year), largely for technological reasons (the US doesn't require, and many issuers don't even support, chip and pin, or 3dsecure, and of course there's the magstripe thing, though most card fraud is online these days where 3dsecure is more relevant). > Whereas in Europe the burden of evidence (not proof) is with the cardholder. This is the case for chip and pin transactions. It would generally _not_ be the case for foreign non-chip-and-pin transactions, though cardholders may not necessarily be aware of this.

by larkost 3mo ago

Hikikomori 3mo ago

Taking a card away from the table is weird for us because it's not what we do here so it becomes suspicious. Even so skimming is much less of a problem since chip and pin were introduced. Nobody I know has had any issues with fraud. We also require 2fa for online purchases. There's also a large difference between counties. In the Nordics its ubiquitous, I haven't carried or needed cash for almost 20 years. Meanwhile Germany has barely started to use cards.

Rexxar 3mo ago

It's seem completely crazy to me to give your card to a waiter.

lxgr 3mo ago

Yes, because handing over your card to a stranger is considered a fairly crazy thing to do in most countries other than the US, as cards require PIN entry for most transactions (which actually does meaningfully prevent in-person card fraud). In the US, you simply have no choice if you want to eat in a restaurant, so people are used to it. I'd expect total skimming rates to be higher in the US, since magnetic stripe transactions have been phased out in effectively all other countries. People don't care because they don't directly pay for the resulting fraud out of pocket. As a society, of course everybody still pays for it. > Largely it is the merchants who have to prove that there was no fraud No, in-store, it's the issuing bank that's liable, even in the US (unless the card is PIN-preferring, which is usually only true for foreign cards).

orf 3mo ago

US card fraud rate is significantly higher than in the EU. In 2015 it was about 0.042% in the EU, vs 0.1388% for the US. The 2021 rates for the EU fell to ~0.028%. You get nervous about giving your card to a waiter because you’re in a foreign place with a nonsense payment system worst than most developing countries and it’s not something you’re ever asked to do anywhere else.

rsynnott 3mo ago

> One quick example is that the Europeans get very nervous when the waiter takes the credit card away from the table in the U.S.. This is just not done in Europe because there is a (at least perceived) history of skimming in much of Europe. ... No. It's just not done in Europe because it is _not permitted_. Chip and pin was made mandatory decades ago, and for that the cardholder must be present. It's not unreasonable to be disconcerted when something which just doesn't happen in your experience (the waiter takes your card away!) happens. Skimming is also mostly now a US thing, as non-US cards no longer require a magnetic stripe at all (the only US has a stay of execution; Mastercard plans to completely phase out magstripes by 2033, and I think Visa is similar). The US has _far_ more card fraud than the EU (about $15bn vs $1.5bn/year), largely for technological reasons (the US doesn't require, and many issuers don't even support, chip and pin, or 3dsecure, and of course there's the magstripe thing, though most card fraud is online these days where 3dsecure is more relevant). > Whereas in Europe the burden of evidence (not proof) is with the cardholder. This is the case for chip and pin transactions. It would generally _not_ be the case for foreign non-chip-and-pin transactions, though cardholders may not necessarily be aware of this.