6 ms·

Hulu requests removal from Boxee

48 points by moses1400 18y ago

jonursenbach 18y ago
It really is a shame for NBCU, and company, to ask Hulu to cut Boxee off. If I recall correctly, didn't content from Hulu that was piped into Boxee still have ads? Hopefully someday they'll realize that when they cut off people from having legal access to their content, people will go back to their illegal methods. When will old media learn?
- paulsmith 18y ago
  If they would just think of the content as syndication ala RSS, or YouTube embedding, they'd recognize that we Boxee users see the same pre-/post-/middle-roll ads that appear on Hulu.com actual. This is especially frustrating for me because I set up my HTPC with Boxee expressly to have an easy-to-navigate interface for Hulu via my remote control.
  - abstractbill 18y ago
    The old-media guys who made this decision almost certainly don't have a clue what RSS is. I share your viewpoint, but there are (still) many dinosaurs running this industry.
    - swlevy 18y ago
      It isn't quite that simple; I work for an "old media" company, and for us, Boxee jumped the gun by ingesting content prior to having the requisite agreement. Since they did not consult our developers, our ads were not implemented correctly, and we weren't getting paid (even though Boxee's users may have been seeing the ads).
      - bestes 18y ago
        Isn't this something you(or they) could fix on your end?
        peregrine 18y ago
        Hulu probably signed an agreement with say Tivo or Microsoft(360), nintendo, sony, heck even samsung. To do the same thing but have people pay for it and get some royalties. This product only Hulu wasn't making any money with this. Boxee was full of people who would use Hulu without boxee and see the ads but the Hulu brand and ads wouldn't be connected as clearly as they would be online. In a recession things like that can fly but when your trying to make money you gotta work for it.
      - jnoller 18y ago
        Then work with them to forge the deal, instead of yanking your content and causing a frenzy which isn't in your favor. Maybe explain why the ads were not generating revenue, for starters. Just having it yanked begets bad blood. There's a lot of early adopters and people using boxee+hulu, and pulling it means people will simply tune you out.
      - jonursenbach 18y ago
        How is what Boxee was doing any different from the EMBED tag that Hulu gives out?
      - mechanical_fish 18y ago
        Have your employers considered how many ads the Bittorrent users are paying for? Boxee is taking off. Its users are voluntarily watching your ads. And, instead of trying to work with that and ride the wave, your tired media company is emasculating it. Sounds like the kind of brilliant logic that led the music publishers to destroy Napster, only stupider.
      - ja2ke 18y ago
        Progess is slow, and it's hard to get people to change, etc, but Boxee seems extraordinarily dedicated to getting real partners onto its service, and serving as much legal content as they can. I do think that they might be overstepping or at least stepping out of being "professional" by just integrating things like Hulu content, basically "rogue," but it's what they have to do to get a userbase and to get the buzz that they have. But now, they're here, and they want to play. There is a service and a userbase who are all clearly invested in supporting your legal content, sitting here staring content providers in the face. Surely entertainment hubris or ego will get in the way of things actually going smoothly in a situation like this, but its one of those times where I wish everyone would just shut up, play ball, and make money.
      - noahlt 18y ago
        "Since they did not consult our developers, our ads were not implemented correctly, and we weren't getting paid (even though Boxee's users may have been seeing the ads)." Honest question: don't you normally pay for ads, rather than getting paid for them? I must be missing something here.
- zhyder 18y ago
  Hulu.com does have fewer ads than broadcast TV (altho a DVR can circumvent ads on the latter). If NBC makes less per view on Hulu than it does on TV, this request makes some sense.
  - wmf 18y ago
    No it doesn't, because whether you watch Hulu using Firefox or Boxee the same ads should be shown.
    - zhyder 18y ago
      I know. But when you bring up the same show on TV using over-the-air/satellite/cable you see more ads.
      - bjtitus 18y ago
        Then why don't they shut Hulu down?
        zhyder 18y ago
        1. Hulu is where they're testing the waters of Internet distribution; it's still a limited experiment. 2. They're hoping Hulu -because of its requirement of a computer- won't cannibalize their broadcast TV shows. In terms of their bottom line, Hulu > pirated shows on the Internet, but Hulu < TV. Edit: nikblack explains it more eloquently in this comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=486620 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=486620
      - jonursenbach 18y ago
        Then should they prevent me from buying a Mac Mini/Apple TV, hooking it up to my TV, opening up a web browser with Hulu and watching something in full screen?
- jrockway 18y ago
  Hopefully someday they'll realize that when they cut off people from having legal access to their content, people will go back to their illegal methods. When will old media learn? How is bit-torrenting TV episodes illegal? They are broadcast into my house for free, so why would it matter if I record them, or if Some Guy On The Internet records them for me? (I never watch TV un-timeshifted, so I don't see ads either way.)
  - wmf 18y ago
    I'll assume this was a serious question. While recording a show yourself and downloading it both produce the same outcome, copyright law cares about the path that bits take. Even if the TV networks are distributing something for free, it isn't legal for you to redistribute it for free without their permission.
    - whughes 18y ago
      An interesting post I read about this a while back: http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/colour/2004061001.php http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/colour/2004061001.php
  - krschultz 18y ago
    Your problem is that you are being rational, and copyright law is anything but. I don't think there has been a definitive ruling on the matter but I think torrenting is illegal because you never own the show, you have a license to view it in one way and viewing it in another violates that license. For example, if I get the show in HD on my package and you don't, me giving you a copy means you have an experience that you would not otherwise have and therefore are violating the copyright.
wmf 18y ago
Now I'm not so sure it's worth paying $30 for PlayOn; I'd hate to see it crippled at some point in the future.
sachinag 18y ago
You can fullscreen Hulu onto your TV with a PlayStation 3.
- ctingom 18y ago
  How do you do that?
  - sachinag 18y ago
    1. Open Internet Browser 2. Hit Triangle and Search for [hulu] 3. Go to Hulu.com (should be the first hit) 4. Click on the video you want. 5. When the page loads, hit Triangle then click on View. Then select the "maxiumum size" option. 6. Then Click on Full Screen view in the options on the Hulu page. This should work, but I get letterboxing on the left and right sides of my HDTV. I assume this is my TV, but who knows. [Edit: it appears that Step 5 is unnecessary.]
    - wmf 18y ago
      In my experience you have to use the game controller (rather than the remote) to hit the full screen button. Overall, I find that PlayOn gives a much better experience than the PS3 Web browser.
    - ctingom 18y ago
      Awesome, thanks!
- jasonkester 18y ago
  You can fullscreen Hulu onto your TV with a laptop. It's like a $5 cable.
  - paul7986 18y ago
    yeah or get a mac mini and put in your tv cabinet and connect it to your LCD TV. Use a wireless mouse as a remote. You can watch Hulu, YouTube, theWB, joost, cbsnews.com/video, tv.com, wbkids.com and others this way.
IsaacSchlueter 18y ago
When I read articles like this, it just makes me sad for Hulu. What an unpleasant predicament it must be to be in bed with such idiotic partners who just Do It Wrong so much of the time.
wastedbrains 18y ago
damn I was loving boxee and if people request out, then you will loose the all in one media experience
babul 18y ago
In a way, this is actually a good sign. It shows the content providers are scared. You are not doing things right if you are not shaking things up and scaring people. That is what disruptive technology is about. Many startups face similar challenges and this reminds me of the struggles ones such as GlassesDirect.co.uk had to go through before becoming successful (they could have been crushed many times by Goliaths but fought through) - it had to close several times when major competitors and retailers tried to sabotage its business by forcing manufacturers/suppliers to drop GlassesDirect (else they would withdraw their vastly larger orders) and running smear campaigns in the press with false allegations about why using the service was illegal and substandard. In this case, yes, content providers have a right to choose where/how their content is shown, but this is probably more to do with not getting licensing fees from Boxee than anything else. However, if they do not adopt/embrace legal methods such as Boxee (and insert extra adverts etc. to make the revenue they want), then they only encourage illegal methods. --- Concerted efforts to sabotage the new venture have proved fruitless. In September, his main supplier mysteriously dropped him. “They suddenly said they couldn’t do business with me. I reckon they had pressure put on them by a high-street chain. It took me a week to find a new supplier and re-do the website.” The trade press confirmed his paranoia when letters and articles appeared questioning the firm’s credentials and the General Optical Council launched an investigation. “Groundless attacks. I have fully qualified opticians working in labs, making the glasses. [http://www.realbusiness.co.uk/archive/4775601/feature-glassesdirect-it-might-just-work.thtml http://www.realbusiness.co.uk/archive/4775601/feature-glasse...] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Murray_Wells http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Murray_Wells
nikblack 18y ago
There is some background to this that is interesting. The reason why the content holders behind Hulu didn't want their content on Boxee was because it came too close to replicating the television experience. While the advertising was kept in place, it still doesn't attract the rates that normal television does. Given a choice, content holders definitely prefer viewers to tune into ordinary broadcast television to watch their shows - online content is about capturing the potion of viewers who miss shows and don't watch broadcast television. With Boxee, there is the potential that the online content will cut into the broadcast TV audience - hence this decision. What is interesting is that the true motives are now more obvious. Online content, in the form of both iTunes and Hulu, is fine as long as it doesn't cut too close to the broadcast base. Content holders have gone from vigorously defending their network broadcasts to now accepting online content, but only to a point. The next battle will take place when more intelligent PC-like DVR's come out on the market (like the PS3, but at a $100-150 price point) allowing viewers to easily stream online content to a television with a remote. The content owners have a short time window between now and then where they have the best of both worlds - both broadcast and online, but once it all goes online the very lucrative and protected broadcast market will be threatened. With online, there is no more having to acquire broadcast licenses, no more large-scale infrastructure networks to reach your potential audience and no longer limited competition and cable monopolies with packaged channel selection.
- nikblack 18y ago
  Further, here is a comparison of CPM rates and revenue for a typical TV episode. Network TV: $20-40cpm per ad - 15-19 ads shown in 30 minutes Cable: $1-15 cpm per ad - 10-22 ads shown (plus subscription revenue) iTunes: $0.80 per viewer, so CPM of $80 total (est network share) Hulu / Online: CPM $10-40. 1-4 ads per show. If you do the math, its obvious that network broadcasts really rake it in. A 30 second spot on a prime time network show sells for anywhere from $400,000 to $800,000 per spot (for 15-30M viewers). If everyone started watching Hulu instead, they would lose 80-90% of revenue. If everybody downloaded on iTunes (assuming 3 viewers per download, or more is likely) they would still lose out but not as much. The problem is if the networks start offering a la carte shows for $2 a pop, they lose the bundling revenue (ie. channels you receive in a bundle but would never pay for on their own).
tocomment 18y ago
Dumb, question but what is boxee? Why would I use it? I honestly couldn't figure it out from their website nor the wikipedia article about boxee.
- donniefitz2 18y ago
  Just download it and try it. You'll see why it rocks so much. I agree, the site doesn't do the product justice.
- Timothee 18y ago
  It's a media center software (based on XMBC) with a focus on online content with videos from Hulu, Netflix, Comedy Central, YouTube, torrents, etc.; pictures from PicasaWeb and Flickr, music from last.fm, NPR, etc. Why should you use it? It's a great step towards combining online content with a TV. It has a lot of pieces that are missing from AppleTV. (even though it's possible to install Boxee on AppleTV :))
  - tocomment 18y ago
    I have a mac mini. Will it let me use the included remote to control it?
    - Watts 18y ago
      I tried it on my iMac, and yes you can use the Apple remote to control it.
modoc 18y ago
It's funny, I ordered an Apple TV to install Boxee on for the bedroom TV today. Hulu was going to be one of the major sources of content for Boxee, however now it sounds like it'll simply be tvtorrents + rss + rtorrent. It's just as easy for me, but it means zero ads. Seems like NBC is the one losing out by this move.
donniefitz2 18y ago
This is devastating news. WTF? For what reason? The ads are there. What is wrong with these people. So much for innovation.
misterbwong 18y ago
I really like the way that Boxee and Hulu are handling this. At least they are being honest with their motivations and not trying to strong-arm users with legal mumbo-jumbo. That said, this is very unfortunate news. Just this week, I was contemplating replacing my cable with boxee/internet streams. Oh well.

48 points by moses1400 18y ago

It really is a shame for NBCU, and company, to ask Hulu to cut Boxee off. If I recall correctly, didn't content from Hulu that was piped into Boxee still have ads? Hopefully someday they'll realize that when they cut off people from having legal access to their content, people will go back to their illegal methods. When will old media learn?

paulsmith 18y ago
If they would just think of the content as syndication ala RSS, or YouTube embedding, they'd recognize that we Boxee users see the same pre-/post-/middle-roll ads that appear on Hulu.com actual. This is especially frustrating for me because I set up my HTPC with Boxee expressly to have an easy-to-navigate interface for Hulu via my remote control.
- abstractbill 18y ago
  The old-media guys who made this decision almost certainly don't have a clue what RSS is. I share your viewpoint, but there are (still) many dinosaurs running this industry.
  - swlevy 18y ago
    It isn't quite that simple; I work for an "old media" company, and for us, Boxee jumped the gun by ingesting content prior to having the requisite agreement. Since they did not consult our developers, our ads were not implemented correctly, and we weren't getting paid (even though Boxee's users may have been seeing the ads).
    - bestes 18y ago
      Isn't this something you(or they) could fix on your end?
      - peregrine 18y ago
        Hulu probably signed an agreement with say Tivo or Microsoft(360), nintendo, sony, heck even samsung. To do the same thing but have people pay for it and get some royalties. This product only Hulu wasn't making any money with this. Boxee was full of people who would use Hulu without boxee and see the ads but the Hulu brand and ads wouldn't be connected as clearly as they would be online. In a recession things like that can fly but when your trying to make money you gotta work for it.
    - jnoller 18y ago
      Then work with them to forge the deal, instead of yanking your content and causing a frenzy which isn't in your favor. Maybe explain why the ads were not generating revenue, for starters. Just having it yanked begets bad blood. There's a lot of early adopters and people using boxee+hulu, and pulling it means people will simply tune you out.
    - jonursenbach 18y ago
      How is what Boxee was doing any different from the EMBED tag that Hulu gives out?
    - mechanical_fish 18y ago
      Have your employers considered how many ads the Bittorrent users are paying for? Boxee is taking off. Its users are voluntarily watching your ads. And, instead of trying to work with that and ride the wave, your tired media company is emasculating it. Sounds like the kind of brilliant logic that led the music publishers to destroy Napster, only stupider.
    - ja2ke 18y ago
      Progess is slow, and it's hard to get people to change, etc, but Boxee seems extraordinarily dedicated to getting real partners onto its service, and serving as much legal content as they can. I do think that they might be overstepping or at least stepping out of being "professional" by just integrating things like Hulu content, basically "rogue," but it's what they have to do to get a userbase and to get the buzz that they have. But now, they're here, and they want to play. There is a service and a userbase who are all clearly invested in supporting your legal content, sitting here staring content providers in the face. Surely entertainment hubris or ego will get in the way of things actually going smoothly in a situation like this, but its one of those times where I wish everyone would just shut up, play ball, and make money.
    - noahlt 18y ago
      "Since they did not consult our developers, our ads were not implemented correctly, and we weren't getting paid (even though Boxee's users may have been seeing the ads)." Honest question: don't you normally pay for ads, rather than getting paid for them? I must be missing something here.
zhyder 18y ago
Hulu.com does have fewer ads than broadcast TV (altho a DVR can circumvent ads on the latter). If NBC makes less per view on Hulu than it does on TV, this request makes some sense.
- wmf 18y ago
  No it doesn't, because whether you watch Hulu using Firefox or Boxee the same ads should be shown.
  - zhyder 18y ago
    I know. But when you bring up the same show on TV using over-the-air/satellite/cable you see more ads.
    - bjtitus 18y ago
      Then why don't they shut Hulu down?
      - zhyder 18y ago
        1. Hulu is where they're testing the waters of Internet distribution; it's still a limited experiment. 2. They're hoping Hulu -because of its requirement of a computer- won't cannibalize their broadcast TV shows. In terms of their bottom line, Hulu > pirated shows on the Internet, but Hulu < TV. Edit: nikblack explains it more eloquently in this comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=486620 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=486620
    - jonursenbach 18y ago
      Then should they prevent me from buying a Mac Mini/Apple TV, hooking it up to my TV, opening up a web browser with Hulu and watching something in full screen?
jrockway 18y ago
Hopefully someday they'll realize that when they cut off people from having legal access to their content, people will go back to their illegal methods. When will old media learn? How is bit-torrenting TV episodes illegal? They are broadcast into my house for free, so why would it matter if I record them, or if Some Guy On The Internet records them for me? (I never watch TV un-timeshifted, so I don't see ads either way.)
- wmf 18y ago
  I'll assume this was a serious question. While recording a show yourself and downloading it both produce the same outcome, copyright law cares about the path that bits take. Even if the TV networks are distributing something for free, it isn't legal for you to redistribute it for free without their permission.
  - whughes 18y ago
    An interesting post I read about this a while back: http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/colour/2004061001.php http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/colour/2004061001.php
- krschultz 18y ago
  Your problem is that you are being rational, and copyright law is anything but. I don't think there has been a definitive ruling on the matter but I think torrenting is illegal because you never own the show, you have a license to view it in one way and viewing it in another violates that license. For example, if I get the show in HD on my package and you don't, me giving you a copy means you have an experience that you would not otherwise have and therefore are violating the copyright.

wmf 18y ago

Now I'm not so sure it's worth paying $30 for PlayOn; I'd hate to see it crippled at some point in the future.

sachinag 18y ago

You can fullscreen Hulu onto your TV with a PlayStation 3.

ctingom 18y ago
How do you do that?
- sachinag 18y ago
  1. Open Internet Browser 2. Hit Triangle and Search for [hulu] 3. Go to Hulu.com (should be the first hit) 4. Click on the video you want. 5. When the page loads, hit Triangle then click on View. Then select the "maxiumum size" option. 6. Then Click on Full Screen view in the options on the Hulu page. This should work, but I get letterboxing on the left and right sides of my HDTV. I assume this is my TV, but who knows. [Edit: it appears that Step 5 is unnecessary.]
  - wmf 18y ago
    In my experience you have to use the game controller (rather than the remote) to hit the full screen button. Overall, I find that PlayOn gives a much better experience than the PS3 Web browser.
  - ctingom 18y ago
    Awesome, thanks!
jasonkester 18y ago
You can fullscreen Hulu onto your TV with a laptop. It's like a $5 cable.
- paul7986 18y ago
  yeah or get a mac mini and put in your tv cabinet and connect it to your LCD TV. Use a wireless mouse as a remote. You can watch Hulu, YouTube, theWB, joost, cbsnews.com/video, tv.com, wbkids.com and others this way.

IsaacSchlueter 18y ago

When I read articles like this, it just makes me sad for Hulu. What an unpleasant predicament it must be to be in bed with such idiotic partners who just Do It Wrong so much of the time.

wastedbrains 18y ago

damn I was loving boxee and if people request out, then you will loose the all in one media experience

babul 18y ago

In a way, this is actually a good sign. It shows the content providers are scared. You are not doing things right if you are not shaking things up and scaring people. That is what disruptive technology is about. Many startups face similar challenges and this reminds me of the struggles ones such as GlassesDirect.co.uk had to go through before becoming successful (they could have been crushed many times by Goliaths but fought through) - it had to close several times when major competitors and retailers tried to sabotage its business by forcing manufacturers/suppliers to drop GlassesDirect (else they would withdraw their vastly larger orders) and running smear campaigns in the press with false allegations about why using the service was illegal and substandard. In this case, yes, content providers have a right to choose where/how their content is shown, but this is probably more to do with not getting licensing fees from Boxee than anything else. However, if they do not adopt/embrace legal methods such as Boxee (and insert extra adverts etc. to make the revenue they want), then they only encourage illegal methods. --- Concerted efforts to sabotage the new venture have proved fruitless. In September, his main supplier mysteriously dropped him. “They suddenly said they couldn’t do business with me. I reckon they had pressure put on them by a high-street chain. It took me a week to find a new supplier and re-do the website.” The trade press confirmed his paranoia when letters and articles appeared questioning the firm’s credentials and the General Optical Council launched an investigation. “Groundless attacks. I have fully qualified opticians working in labs, making the glasses. [http://www.realbusiness.co.uk/archive/4775601/feature-glassesdirect-it-might-just-work.thtml http://www.realbusiness.co.uk/archive/4775601/feature-glasse...] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Murray_Wells http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Murray_Wells

nikblack 18y ago

There is some background to this that is interesting. The reason why the content holders behind Hulu didn't want their content on Boxee was because it came too close to replicating the television experience. While the advertising was kept in place, it still doesn't attract the rates that normal television does. Given a choice, content holders definitely prefer viewers to tune into ordinary broadcast television to watch their shows - online content is about capturing the potion of viewers who miss shows and don't watch broadcast television. With Boxee, there is the potential that the online content will cut into the broadcast TV audience - hence this decision. What is interesting is that the true motives are now more obvious. Online content, in the form of both iTunes and Hulu, is fine as long as it doesn't cut too close to the broadcast base. Content holders have gone from vigorously defending their network broadcasts to now accepting online content, but only to a point. The next battle will take place when more intelligent PC-like DVR's come out on the market (like the PS3, but at a $100-150 price point) allowing viewers to easily stream online content to a television with a remote. The content owners have a short time window between now and then where they have the best of both worlds - both broadcast and online, but once it all goes online the very lucrative and protected broadcast market will be threatened. With online, there is no more having to acquire broadcast licenses, no more large-scale infrastructure networks to reach your potential audience and no longer limited competition and cable monopolies with packaged channel selection.

nikblack 18y ago
Further, here is a comparison of CPM rates and revenue for a typical TV episode. Network TV: $20-40cpm per ad - 15-19 ads shown in 30 minutes Cable: $1-15 cpm per ad - 10-22 ads shown (plus subscription revenue) iTunes: $0.80 per viewer, so CPM of $80 total (est network share) Hulu / Online: CPM $10-40. 1-4 ads per show. If you do the math, its obvious that network broadcasts really rake it in. A 30 second spot on a prime time network show sells for anywhere from $400,000 to $800,000 per spot (for 15-30M viewers). If everyone started watching Hulu instead, they would lose 80-90% of revenue. If everybody downloaded on iTunes (assuming 3 viewers per download, or more is likely) they would still lose out but not as much. The problem is if the networks start offering a la carte shows for $2 a pop, they lose the bundling revenue (ie. channels you receive in a bundle but would never pay for on their own).

tocomment 18y ago

Dumb, question but what is boxee? Why would I use it? I honestly couldn't figure it out from their website nor the wikipedia article about boxee.

donniefitz2 18y ago
Just download it and try it. You'll see why it rocks so much. I agree, the site doesn't do the product justice.
Timothee 18y ago
It's a media center software (based on XMBC) with a focus on online content with videos from Hulu, Netflix, Comedy Central, YouTube, torrents, etc.; pictures from PicasaWeb and Flickr, music from last.fm, NPR, etc. Why should you use it? It's a great step towards combining online content with a TV. It has a lot of pieces that are missing from AppleTV. (even though it's possible to install Boxee on AppleTV :))
- tocomment 18y ago
  I have a mac mini. Will it let me use the included remote to control it?
  - Watts 18y ago
    I tried it on my iMac, and yes you can use the Apple remote to control it.

modoc 18y ago

It's funny, I ordered an Apple TV to install Boxee on for the bedroom TV today. Hulu was going to be one of the major sources of content for Boxee, however now it sounds like it'll simply be tvtorrents + rss + rtorrent. It's just as easy for me, but it means zero ads. Seems like NBC is the one losing out by this move.

donniefitz2 18y ago

This is devastating news. WTF? For what reason? The ads are there. What is wrong with these people. So much for innovation.

misterbwong 18y ago

I really like the way that Boxee and Hulu are handling this. At least they are being honest with their motivations and not trying to strong-arm users with legal mumbo-jumbo. That said, this is very unfortunate news. Just this week, I was contemplating replacing my cable with boxee/internet streams. Oh well.