5 ms·

To clarify, you're stating that "Don't talk to the police" is an "extremely online belief"? Or were you referencing the dating portion of the comment?

by duld 3mo ago

tptacek 3mo ago
Correct: "never talk to the police" is a very online belief. I watch people talk to police all the time. People go out of their way to do it. I don't even know what to do with the "never date police officers" thing. Most police officers are married. It's a shift-work job, so they have high divorce rates, but they just remarry.
- fzeroracer 3mo ago
  Saying never talk to the police is an 'online belief' is frankly baffling. There are multiple examples of prominent law professors bringing in ex-police professionals who all say the exact same thing: never talk to the police. If you spend five minutes around a lawyer they will say the same thing. If you ever end up finding yourself in legal turmoil it is the very first thing a lawyer will directly advise you to do. People being stupid I don't think suddenly makes this advice terminally online. I was hearing it, in person, when I was in college over a decade ago.
  - tptacek 3mo ago
    Most people simply don't see themselves as being in zero-sum contests with the police. If you are in such a contest, those videos you've watched are quite useful and important. But when there's a hit and run on your block, expect your neighbors to go out of their way to volunteer information to the police. I've read threads here where people have made impassioned arguments that you yourself should never volunteer information to the police investigating a crime such as a hit and run. The police will turn it against you and somehow make you the target of their investigation! Ordinary people out in the world do not think that way, and you will not succeed in making them think that way by showing them videos of lawyers explaining why the only thing you should ever say is "I do not consent to any searches and will not answer any of your questions". If you said that to a police officer doing a canvass in my neighborhood, people would look at you like a space alien. I think it's helpful to understand all this stuff when reading things about Flock. People on HN and in activist communities seem gobsmacked that all the Flock cameras haven't been taken down yet (in fact: ALPR deployments are growing, not shrinking). But they have wildly different priors about policing than the median resident of a muni with ALPR cameras.
    - Teever 3mo ago
      Surely there's more interesting conversation to be had here than just "your opinions about interacting with law enforcement are moot because I know people in my Chicago neighbourhood who disagree with them."
      - rcxdude 3mo ago
        The main contention seems to be 'surely everyone knows you shouldn't talk to the police' and 'no, quite a lot of people believe the opposite, but it's not as common to see that belief online', with a bit of this being conflated with whether this belief is accurate or not.
        picofarad 3mo ago
        What's your source for the "no, quite a lot of people believe the opposite."? Is it a Chicago suburb?
        rcxdude 3mo ago
        I dunno, I didn't make that claim, I'm just pointing out there seems to be two different conversations happening in different participant's heads.
    - watwut 3mo ago
      > Most people simply don't see themselves as being in zero-sum contests with the police. Yes, that is why they don't do it. It does not mean the advice is "terminally online". It is the advice coming from layers that deal with the system. Layers saying those things, online and offline, are not terminally online.
      - rcxdude 3mo ago
        No, but online is where you see this advice being most commonly posted and repeated. Second-most might be in lawyer's offices, but a) most people don't interact with lawyers, especially not in the context of criminal investigations, and b) the lawyers themselves have a distorted view of this system, because they are almost always dealing with people who, for one reason or another, should not talk to the police.
  - lukan 3mo ago
    Multiple? I only ever see that one guy's video linked.
- BrenBarn 3mo ago
  The fact that most people believe it's not good advice doesn't mean it actually is not good advice.
  - tptacek 3mo ago
    I'm not making a normative claim about what your best strategy is to protect yourself from a police investigation, but rather a positive claim about ordinary people's attitudes towards the police, which are not (gesturing towards this thread) this.
    - Retric 3mo ago
      Meanwhile I’ve spent way too much time around people in real life on both sides of the isle that absolutely loathed the police. The general attitude seems extremely positively correlated with income, and the average American isn’t particularly well off.
      - joxdosba 3mo ago
        I don’t know, as someone firmly in the top 0.1% of taxpayers, most cops seem gleefully unaware of their place in life. But perhaps that just reflects the public/private split when it comes to quality of services
      - tptacek 3mo ago
        The biggest complaint working class families on the west side of Chicago have about the police is that they're never around when they're needed.
        Retric 3mo ago
        Which is significantly less of a concern in wealthy areas. When fines are meaningless and police plentiful people’s attitude changes.
        tptacek 3mo ago
- watwut 3mo ago
  > I don't even know what to do with the "never date police officers" thing. Most police officers are married. It's a shift-work job, so they have high divorce rates, but they just remarry. They have also unusually high domestic violence rates. That is where the bit comes from.
  - tptacek 3mo ago
    So do firefighters.
    - watwut 3mo ago
      This is first time I have seen the claim that firefighters have the same domestic violence rates as police. I have seen multiple studies on police vs regular citizens and police were more violent in all of them. I did not seen comparable numbers about firefighters. The factors police have and firemen dont are a.) victim not being able to go to police, cause those are his buddies b.) training teaches cops to take and keep charge (escalating aggression until compliance is acquired).
      - s1artibartfast 3mo ago
        Nobody said "the same". The question in my mind is what people are expecting? What do they think this proves? Policing is a conflict focused job that involves violence so I wouldnt expect it to be the same as baseline to begin with. I would caution against "just so" explainations. There are obviously lots of complex reasons and one can speculate a lot of stories one way or another.
        tremon 3mo ago
        > Policing is a conflict focused job that involves violence Because of this, police officers should have plenty of experience (and training, but let's limit this to the US) with de-escalation and proportional response. The domestic violence rates should be lower among police wrt the general populace for that reason alone.
- joxdosba 3mo ago
  >I don't even know what to do with the "never date police officers" thing. Most police officers are married. It's a shift-work job, so they have high divorce rates, but they just remarry. This is a deeply masculine take, Zuck would be proud. This is such a widely known problem, I’m really surprised you’re not familiar with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer-involved_domestic_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer-involved_domestic_viol... “Never date a cop” is very common advice women will give to each other, has nothing to do with politics or being excessively online.
- joquarky 3mo ago
  This site attracts ivory tower residents. Your comment is a great example of this. Try growing up poor and see how your perspective changes on the police.

To clarify, you're stating that "Don't talk to the police" is an "extremely online belief"? Or were you referencing the dating portion of the comment?

by duld 3mo ago

To clarify, you're stating that "Don't talk to the police" is an "extremely online belief"? Or were you referencing the dating portion of the comment?

tptacek 3mo ago

Correct: "never talk to the police" is a very online belief. I watch people talk to police all the time. People go out of their way to do it. I don't even know what to do with the "never date police officers" thing. Most police officers are married. It's a shift-work job, so they have high divorce rates, but they just remarry.

fzeroracer 3mo ago
Saying never talk to the police is an 'online belief' is frankly baffling. There are multiple examples of prominent law professors bringing in ex-police professionals who all say the exact same thing: never talk to the police. If you spend five minutes around a lawyer they will say the same thing. If you ever end up finding yourself in legal turmoil it is the very first thing a lawyer will directly advise you to do. People being stupid I don't think suddenly makes this advice terminally online. I was hearing it, in person, when I was in college over a decade ago.
- tptacek 3mo ago
  Most people simply don't see themselves as being in zero-sum contests with the police. If you are in such a contest, those videos you've watched are quite useful and important. But when there's a hit and run on your block, expect your neighbors to go out of their way to volunteer information to the police. I've read threads here where people have made impassioned arguments that you yourself should never volunteer information to the police investigating a crime such as a hit and run. The police will turn it against you and somehow make you the target of their investigation! Ordinary people out in the world do not think that way, and you will not succeed in making them think that way by showing them videos of lawyers explaining why the only thing you should ever say is "I do not consent to any searches and will not answer any of your questions". If you said that to a police officer doing a canvass in my neighborhood, people would look at you like a space alien. I think it's helpful to understand all this stuff when reading things about Flock. People on HN and in activist communities seem gobsmacked that all the Flock cameras haven't been taken down yet (in fact: ALPR deployments are growing, not shrinking). But they have wildly different priors about policing than the median resident of a muni with ALPR cameras.
  - Teever 3mo ago
    Surely there's more interesting conversation to be had here than just "your opinions about interacting with law enforcement are moot because I know people in my Chicago neighbourhood who disagree with them."
    - rcxdude 3mo ago
      The main contention seems to be 'surely everyone knows you shouldn't talk to the police' and 'no, quite a lot of people believe the opposite, but it's not as common to see that belief online', with a bit of this being conflated with whether this belief is accurate or not.
      - picofarad 3mo ago
        What's your source for the "no, quite a lot of people believe the opposite."? Is it a Chicago suburb?
        rcxdude 3mo ago
        I dunno, I didn't make that claim, I'm just pointing out there seems to be two different conversations happening in different participant's heads.
  - watwut 3mo ago
    > Most people simply don't see themselves as being in zero-sum contests with the police. Yes, that is why they don't do it. It does not mean the advice is "terminally online". It is the advice coming from layers that deal with the system. Layers saying those things, online and offline, are not terminally online.
    - rcxdude 3mo ago
      No, but online is where you see this advice being most commonly posted and repeated. Second-most might be in lawyer's offices, but a) most people don't interact with lawyers, especially not in the context of criminal investigations, and b) the lawyers themselves have a distorted view of this system, because they are almost always dealing with people who, for one reason or another, should not talk to the police.
- lukan 3mo ago
  Multiple? I only ever see that one guy's video linked.
BrenBarn 3mo ago
The fact that most people believe it's not good advice doesn't mean it actually is not good advice.
- tptacek 3mo ago
  I'm not making a normative claim about what your best strategy is to protect yourself from a police investigation, but rather a positive claim about ordinary people's attitudes towards the police, which are not (gesturing towards this thread) this.
  - Retric 3mo ago
    Meanwhile I’ve spent way too much time around people in real life on both sides of the isle that absolutely loathed the police. The general attitude seems extremely positively correlated with income, and the average American isn’t particularly well off.
    - joxdosba 3mo ago
      I don’t know, as someone firmly in the top 0.1% of taxpayers, most cops seem gleefully unaware of their place in life. But perhaps that just reflects the public/private split when it comes to quality of services
    - tptacek 3mo ago
      The biggest complaint working class families on the west side of Chicago have about the police is that they're never around when they're needed.
      - Retric 3mo ago
        Which is significantly less of a concern in wealthy areas. When fines are meaningless and police plentiful people’s attitude changes.
        tptacek 3mo ago
watwut 3mo ago
> I don't even know what to do with the "never date police officers" thing. Most police officers are married. It's a shift-work job, so they have high divorce rates, but they just remarry. They have also unusually high domestic violence rates. That is where the bit comes from.
- tptacek 3mo ago
  So do firefighters.
  - watwut 3mo ago
    This is first time I have seen the claim that firefighters have the same domestic violence rates as police. I have seen multiple studies on police vs regular citizens and police were more violent in all of them. I did not seen comparable numbers about firefighters. The factors police have and firemen dont are a.) victim not being able to go to police, cause those are his buddies b.) training teaches cops to take and keep charge (escalating aggression until compliance is acquired).
    - s1artibartfast 3mo ago
      Nobody said "the same". The question in my mind is what people are expecting? What do they think this proves? Policing is a conflict focused job that involves violence so I wouldnt expect it to be the same as baseline to begin with. I would caution against "just so" explainations. There are obviously lots of complex reasons and one can speculate a lot of stories one way or another.
      - tremon 3mo ago
        > Policing is a conflict focused job that involves violence Because of this, police officers should have plenty of experience (and training, but let's limit this to the US) with de-escalation and proportional response. The domestic violence rates should be lower among police wrt the general populace for that reason alone.
joxdosba 3mo ago
>I don't even know what to do with the "never date police officers" thing. Most police officers are married. It's a shift-work job, so they have high divorce rates, but they just remarry. This is a deeply masculine take, Zuck would be proud. This is such a widely known problem, I’m really surprised you’re not familiar with it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer-involved_domestic_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer-involved_domestic_viol... “Never date a cop” is very common advice women will give to each other, has nothing to do with politics or being excessively online.
joquarky 3mo ago
This site attracts ivory tower residents. Your comment is a great example of this. Try growing up poor and see how your perspective changes on the police.