4 ms·

The logo expressing "Limited Express" is very unspecific, imagine if buses with the Mercedes star cost extra and didn't stop at every stop. Interesting that a

The logo expressing "Limited Express" is very unspecific, imagine if buses with the Mercedes star cost extra and didn't stop at every stop. Interesting that a lot of US road signs have words on them: https://ygraph.com/graphs/roadsigns-20120316T030941-ekrruua.jpeg https://ygraph.com/graphs/roadsigns-20120316T030941-ekrruua.... , or are obvious, whereas in Europe drivers need to learn what they mean: https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhEsnnyoBcf6BUdHwReUTgc9SiAU3QipOnFfaTsL5oEotKAHzR2o3mY3KRWNcQZlc8FIt7jEVig57qcNuRF3gaRfZui9-qg5TabnB1afau70Uu5f1sMEm6kRmGFggkYv8DICWfVbCK8ct0/s1600/Europe+Road+Signs.jpg https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh... For example the yield triangle, no stopping and no parking are probably unfamiliar to US drivers. Meanwhile all Alfa Romeo Quadrofoglio drivers might be mistaken for drivers with missing limbs in Japan.

lexicality 4mo ago
It was very surprising for me when I visited the US to see just how much space was wasted writing everything out on every sign and sometimes in giant words on the road. It did also make me a bit worried about the expected level of driver education...
- xp84 4mo ago
  To me it's odd to imply people must be stupid because they're expected to read a few simple words such as "Left lane must turn left" rather than to memorize a bunch of symbols. American signs very frequently combine both styles - for instance, you see the above words next to a sign with arrows for whatever lanes, wordlessly illustrating the turn types permitted. If someone is a new driver, who hasn't seen the symbolic signs enough, the word signs are a good fallback. The goal is to maximize accessibility.
  - streetfighter64 4mo ago
    The system of signs used is an independent question from the level of driver education (which probably is generally lower in the USA than in most European countries though), which also is another question from whether people "are stupid". The obvious benefit of the European style is that you don't need to speak the language in order to understand the signs, something that is clearly less important given the relative homogeneity of language in the USA. But at least to me, the European road signs are also more quick to read. For example, the "only right turns" and "speed limit 60" are exactly the same shape and color in the USA, while in Europe there is more of a logical system (which also means you don't "memorize a bunch of symbols", you learn the "language" of the signs), such as blue disc means "mandatory", red circle means "prohibited", red triangle means "warning", etc.
    - Symbiote 4mo ago
      The European signs also fare better in snow, very heavy rain or if they're really dirty, since the shape (and maybe some colour) is still visible.
  - Symbiote 4mo ago
    People have seen the symbols since childhood, and as far as I know in every European country it's necessary to pass the exam on knowing what they mean before starting practical driving lessons.
    - simonask 4mo ago
      Driving in Europe would be completely impossible without them. I have no idea what the Greek word for "no parking or stopping between 09 and 15" is, or the Croatian word for "left".
      - xp84 4mo ago
        I agree - to me, that is the main practical reason Europe is a special case well-suited to symbolic signs. The US doesn't have nearly that issue, since we have tons of symbolic signs, and few languages, which share a ton of close cognates anyway. For instance, most Mexicans I've heard will use the verb "parquear" or "aparcar" to mean "to park" rather than "estacionar" - so as you might expect, they have zero trouble decoding a sign saying "NO PARKING 9AM - 6PM" which is one of the most complicated text-only signs you usually see.
        callmeal 4mo ago
        And then there's this one which always manages to horrify me: https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhyMiSEFyCg6O7bYvOfY4mVB7OjU2YdpnK2u_mVzidTbO423SDL3io41mfOhhEvsmW80uY7jUxVOBboGmbNyPCDasG9VhoXnyMiHu02fN-5VQFH2ilVUT3VLzCgJu-fcZ7wzkaC7Q/s1600/toi95-fay-1976.jpg https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh...
  - lexicality 4mo ago
    I didn't say they were stupid, I said I was concerned about their level of education > If someone is a new driver, who hasn't seen the symbolic signs enough, the word signs are a good fallback. The goal is to maximize accessibility. That's the thing I'm concerned about! In Europe you're not allowed onto the road unless you have already proven that you have memorised all the symbols and can identify them on demand. You don't need to maximise accessibility because the required level of education is higher.
- mock-possum 4mo ago
  You have to pass a written test to get your drivers license, so yes, you are indeed expected to be able to read.
- callmeal 4mo ago
  >It did also make me a bit worried about the expected level of driver education... Not just driver, but of the general population. A few decades ago, the general reading level was at the 6th grade (thanks to the policies of Ronald Regan) and republicans think that is too high and have been working intensely to lower it. Won't be surprised if it's dropped given the "golden" opportunity of covid. I know it's only been a few years (centuries for most Americans) since Betsy DeVos was secretary of education. Remember that era?
svachalek 4mo ago
The yield triangle is super common here (California and everywhere else I've been in the US). It's even on your image. No parking is usually a red curb or striped out area, which is different but also nonverbal. The complication is that many places have a EULA on parking spots that reads something like "No parking, 9-5pm, except on Tuesdays and full moons, or in a yellow vehicle, or by written agreement with a minimum of two signatures not including Bob". Good luck putting that in an icon. That "no stopping" sign is unfamiliar to me, I guess we write it out but it's a pretty rare thing here to not allow stopping. Most of the rest is familiar and/or obvious except the ones that have German words on them. Many of the concepts in writing don't exist on the German signs, I don't know if you don't have these signs or just not listed on your chart. Some of the English ones are just tooltips; it's never ok to stop on a railroad track but someone thought a reminder would be nice.
- seszett 4mo ago
  > "No parking, 9-5pm, except on Tuesdays and full moons, or in a yellow vehicle, or by written agreement with a minimum of two signatures not including Bob". Good luck putting that in an icon. I have also noticed that parking rules are usually much simpler in the EU than in the US, and maybe the format just makes it cumbersome enough to spell out abstruse rules that in the end, the rules just have to stay simple enough. It's not totally true though because lately many cities in France have enacted complicated parking rules that are explained nowhere except on a buried page on their website that might or might not be up to date. But that's just because modern societies are straying further and further away from the rule of law with every passing day, and there is nothing that citizens can do about it.
lxgr 4mo ago
When in doubt, I’ll take a somewhat mysterious pictogram over a written sign in a language I don’t understand.
z2 4mo ago
Both have pretty enjoyable design language. The US signs follow colors, red for prohibition, white for rules, yellow for hazards, green for directional and blue for service. For Europe or the Vienna convention that much of the world uses, in respective order it's red for prohibition, circles for rules, triangle for hazards.
- xnx 4mo ago
  And brown road signs for tourist attractions, recreational areas, and cultural or historical sites.
- Symbiote 4mo ago
  And blue for instruction, so a blue circle is something you must do.
skillina 4mo ago
> Interesting that a lot of US road signs have words on them... whereas in Europe drivers need to learn what they mean I mean... Europe had to develop a system that works regardless of whether you speak the local language. The USA assumed every driver would speak English. I would tend to favor the European strategy, though given how we've held out on adopting the metric system I won't hold my breath.
Tor3 4mo ago
The "Limited Express" logo existed only until the railway was privatized, if I read the article correctly. In any case I haven't noticed it, and you know when a train is a limited express - it's right there on the board announcing incoming trains (and if it's your train then you already have a limited express ticket and you know the exact time it arrives). And, finally, there's an audio announcement which says that it's a limited express. But I'll look for the logo the next time I'm at the station, it would be interesting if it's still there. I actually hope so.

lexicality 4mo ago

It was very surprising for me when I visited the US to see just how much space was wasted writing everything out on every sign and sometimes in giant words on the road. It did also make me a bit worried about the expected level of driver education...

xp84 4mo ago
To me it's odd to imply people must be stupid because they're expected to read a few simple words such as "Left lane must turn left" rather than to memorize a bunch of symbols. American signs very frequently combine both styles - for instance, you see the above words next to a sign with arrows for whatever lanes, wordlessly illustrating the turn types permitted. If someone is a new driver, who hasn't seen the symbolic signs enough, the word signs are a good fallback. The goal is to maximize accessibility.
- streetfighter64 4mo ago
  The system of signs used is an independent question from the level of driver education (which probably is generally lower in the USA than in most European countries though), which also is another question from whether people "are stupid". The obvious benefit of the European style is that you don't need to speak the language in order to understand the signs, something that is clearly less important given the relative homogeneity of language in the USA. But at least to me, the European road signs are also more quick to read. For example, the "only right turns" and "speed limit 60" are exactly the same shape and color in the USA, while in Europe there is more of a logical system (which also means you don't "memorize a bunch of symbols", you learn the "language" of the signs), such as blue disc means "mandatory", red circle means "prohibited", red triangle means "warning", etc.
  - Symbiote 4mo ago
    The European signs also fare better in snow, very heavy rain or if they're really dirty, since the shape (and maybe some colour) is still visible.
- Symbiote 4mo ago
  People have seen the symbols since childhood, and as far as I know in every European country it's necessary to pass the exam on knowing what they mean before starting practical driving lessons.
  - simonask 4mo ago
    Driving in Europe would be completely impossible without them. I have no idea what the Greek word for "no parking or stopping between 09 and 15" is, or the Croatian word for "left".
    - xp84 4mo ago
      I agree - to me, that is the main practical reason Europe is a special case well-suited to symbolic signs. The US doesn't have nearly that issue, since we have tons of symbolic signs, and few languages, which share a ton of close cognates anyway. For instance, most Mexicans I've heard will use the verb "parquear" or "aparcar" to mean "to park" rather than "estacionar" - so as you might expect, they have zero trouble decoding a sign saying "NO PARKING 9AM - 6PM" which is one of the most complicated text-only signs you usually see.
      - callmeal 4mo ago
        And then there's this one which always manages to horrify me: https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhyMiSEFyCg6O7bYvOfY4mVB7OjU2YdpnK2u_mVzidTbO423SDL3io41mfOhhEvsmW80uY7jUxVOBboGmbNyPCDasG9VhoXnyMiHu02fN-5VQFH2ilVUT3VLzCgJu-fcZ7wzkaC7Q/s1600/toi95-fay-1976.jpg https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh...
- lexicality 4mo ago
  I didn't say they were stupid, I said I was concerned about their level of education > If someone is a new driver, who hasn't seen the symbolic signs enough, the word signs are a good fallback. The goal is to maximize accessibility. That's the thing I'm concerned about! In Europe you're not allowed onto the road unless you have already proven that you have memorised all the symbols and can identify them on demand. You don't need to maximise accessibility because the required level of education is higher.
mock-possum 4mo ago
You have to pass a written test to get your drivers license, so yes, you are indeed expected to be able to read.
callmeal 4mo ago
>It did also make me a bit worried about the expected level of driver education... Not just driver, but of the general population. A few decades ago, the general reading level was at the 6th grade (thanks to the policies of Ronald Regan) and republicans think that is too high and have been working intensely to lower it. Won't be surprised if it's dropped given the "golden" opportunity of covid. I know it's only been a few years (centuries for most Americans) since Betsy DeVos was secretary of education. Remember that era?

svachalek 4mo ago

The yield triangle is super common here (California and everywhere else I've been in the US). It's even on your image. No parking is usually a red curb or striped out area, which is different but also nonverbal. The complication is that many places have a EULA on parking spots that reads something like "No parking, 9-5pm, except on Tuesdays and full moons, or in a yellow vehicle, or by written agreement with a minimum of two signatures not including Bob". Good luck putting that in an icon. That "no stopping" sign is unfamiliar to me, I guess we write it out but it's a pretty rare thing here to not allow stopping. Most of the rest is familiar and/or obvious except the ones that have German words on them. Many of the concepts in writing don't exist on the German signs, I don't know if you don't have these signs or just not listed on your chart. Some of the English ones are just tooltips; it's never ok to stop on a railroad track but someone thought a reminder would be nice.

seszett 4mo ago
> "No parking, 9-5pm, except on Tuesdays and full moons, or in a yellow vehicle, or by written agreement with a minimum of two signatures not including Bob". Good luck putting that in an icon. I have also noticed that parking rules are usually much simpler in the EU than in the US, and maybe the format just makes it cumbersome enough to spell out abstruse rules that in the end, the rules just have to stay simple enough. It's not totally true though because lately many cities in France have enacted complicated parking rules that are explained nowhere except on a buried page on their website that might or might not be up to date. But that's just because modern societies are straying further and further away from the rule of law with every passing day, and there is nothing that citizens can do about it.

lxgr 4mo ago

When in doubt, I’ll take a somewhat mysterious pictogram over a written sign in a language I don’t understand.

z2 4mo ago

Both have pretty enjoyable design language. The US signs follow colors, red for prohibition, white for rules, yellow for hazards, green for directional and blue for service. For Europe or the Vienna convention that much of the world uses, in respective order it's red for prohibition, circles for rules, triangle for hazards.

xnx 4mo ago
And brown road signs for tourist attractions, recreational areas, and cultural or historical sites.
Symbiote 4mo ago
And blue for instruction, so a blue circle is something you must do.

skillina 4mo ago

> Interesting that a lot of US road signs have words on them... whereas in Europe drivers need to learn what they mean I mean... Europe had to develop a system that works regardless of whether you speak the local language. The USA assumed every driver would speak English. I would tend to favor the European strategy, though given how we've held out on adopting the metric system I won't hold my breath.

Tor3 4mo ago

The "Limited Express" logo existed only until the railway was privatized, if I read the article correctly. In any case I haven't noticed it, and you know when a train is a limited express - it's right there on the board announcing incoming trains (and if it's your train then you already have a limited express ticket and you know the exact time it arrives). And, finally, there's an audio announcement which says that it's a limited express. But I'll look for the logo the next time I'm at the station, it would be interesting if it's still there. I actually hope so.