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Are you really advocating for suppressing rational assessments for the likelihood of success because you think the analysis is too discouraging? If you already

Are you really advocating for suppressing rational assessments for the likelihood of success because you think the analysis is too discouraging? If you already agree the resistance will ultimately lead nowhere, why not focus that energy on something with a better chance of success? Best guess would be partnering with someone like the EFF for a solution through lobbying And the courts.

zelphirkalt 4mo ago
Is it all that rational? If everyone thinks so, then surely yes, but if people realize, that change starts in the small and they can be part of the change, perhaps at some personal cost, but that it might be worth it, then suddenly change is possible.
inigyou 4mo ago
How have the EFF and the courts worked so far? We do need an EFF, but they're clearly not all that effective. And the courts just won't do anything unless someone does something illegal.
- MobiusHorizons 4mo ago
  Compared to “resist by opting out”, the EFF has been much more successful. So far I’m not aware of any meaningful change in tech enshitification from grassroots opting out (could certainly be missing some instances, though, happy to be told about any). The EFF has at least had some notable wins in crypto export, fighting copyright enforcement abuses, limiting certain types of surveillance (license plate readers in California for example), and right to repair. I’m not saying they have been enough to prevent things from getting worse, but they have actually done things that have staying power, and affect policy to this day, which is better than the track record of opting out as far as I know.
rockskon 4mo ago
Cynicism isn't knowledge. Cynicism isn't an assessment. Cynicism is an assumption. Cynicism is emotional armor because the thought of caring again and the risk of it not panning out is more painful than not caring at all. The only rational aspect of cynicism is that it makes you feel better. It isn't relevant about one's actual ability to change the world. If efforts in the past didn't work to affect political change? Change what you do. Change your tactics. Clearly many groups - including ones with little-to-no-money - can and do succeed to influence policy on a regular basis. The worst thing you can do is to convince others not to do anything about it. And right after that is to do nothing about it yourself.
- MobiusHorizons 4mo ago
  When has this tactic (opting out to force change) ever worked on problems of any meaningful scale before? Please don’t say the civil rights movement, because those boycotts were not effective on their own. Pressure is required to force change, and opting out does not produce the necessary pressure unless it is genuinely a significant portion of users and lasts years. These strategies have been tried time and time again and have proved not to be strong enough to overcome economic forces.
  - rockskon 4mo ago
    Why not look at almost every single interest group that has managed to influence local politics? Ever pay attention to all those groups (private sector or otherwise) that end up influencing policy creation? Ever think of trying to get other government agencies or already-trusted organizations on your side as opposed to trying to establish yourself as a credible voice to ocotogenarians who can't tell the difference between an expert and someone blowing smoke? Finding allies to support your policy goals doesn't need to stop at asking random people on the Internet. It's a woefully underexplored area for Internet freedom activists.
    - MobiusHorizons 4mo ago
      I think we agree on that. Special interest groups proactively push for things, they don't just opt out and hope people notice. I am arguing for lobbying and special interest groups (that's why I suggested the EFF as an example, although certainly not the only one).
      - rockskon 4mo ago
        Coalitions help. Getting local government agencies on your side to promote local government policy helps. Same concept applies to federal.

zelphirkalt 4mo ago

Is it all that rational? If everyone thinks so, then surely yes, but if people realize, that change starts in the small and they can be part of the change, perhaps at some personal cost, but that it might be worth it, then suddenly change is possible.

inigyou 4mo ago

How have the EFF and the courts worked so far? We do need an EFF, but they're clearly not all that effective. And the courts just won't do anything unless someone does something illegal.

MobiusHorizons 4mo ago
Compared to “resist by opting out”, the EFF has been much more successful. So far I’m not aware of any meaningful change in tech enshitification from grassroots opting out (could certainly be missing some instances, though, happy to be told about any). The EFF has at least had some notable wins in crypto export, fighting copyright enforcement abuses, limiting certain types of surveillance (license plate readers in California for example), and right to repair. I’m not saying they have been enough to prevent things from getting worse, but they have actually done things that have staying power, and affect policy to this day, which is better than the track record of opting out as far as I know.

rockskon 4mo ago

Cynicism isn't knowledge. Cynicism isn't an assessment. Cynicism is an assumption. Cynicism is emotional armor because the thought of caring again and the risk of it not panning out is more painful than not caring at all. The only rational aspect of cynicism is that it makes you feel better. It isn't relevant about one's actual ability to change the world. If efforts in the past didn't work to affect political change? Change what you do. Change your tactics. Clearly many groups - including ones with little-to-no-money - can and do succeed to influence policy on a regular basis. The worst thing you can do is to convince others not to do anything about it. And right after that is to do nothing about it yourself.

MobiusHorizons 4mo ago
When has this tactic (opting out to force change) ever worked on problems of any meaningful scale before? Please don’t say the civil rights movement, because those boycotts were not effective on their own. Pressure is required to force change, and opting out does not produce the necessary pressure unless it is genuinely a significant portion of users and lasts years. These strategies have been tried time and time again and have proved not to be strong enough to overcome economic forces.
- rockskon 4mo ago
  Why not look at almost every single interest group that has managed to influence local politics? Ever pay attention to all those groups (private sector or otherwise) that end up influencing policy creation? Ever think of trying to get other government agencies or already-trusted organizations on your side as opposed to trying to establish yourself as a credible voice to ocotogenarians who can't tell the difference between an expert and someone blowing smoke? Finding allies to support your policy goals doesn't need to stop at asking random people on the Internet. It's a woefully underexplored area for Internet freedom activists.
  - MobiusHorizons 4mo ago
    I think we agree on that. Special interest groups proactively push for things, they don't just opt out and hope people notice. I am arguing for lobbying and special interest groups (that's why I suggested the EFF as an example, although certainly not the only one).
    - rockskon 4mo ago
      Coalitions help. Getting local government agencies on your side to promote local government policy helps. Same concept applies to federal.