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The last Romans are still around
- runamuck 4mo ago"Where are the Romans now?" "You're looking at them." - Tony Soprano
- Insanity 4mo agoJust wait for Hollywood to create a film about Roman mythology and not cast a single Roman! But less tongue-in-cheek, the other thing is that the legacy of the Romans is pretty much all around us. The Roman Calendar (with July and August both referencing a Roman leader), the Latin alphabet (with the additional letters like 'y' being added later on to support Greek), the roads we can travel, etc.
- toyg 4mo agoIt's not only July and August; January, May, June, and Mars, are named after Roman gods; February and April after Roman rituals; and September to December after Roman numerals (7 to 10th month, as they were when the calendar first started).
- Insanity 4mo agoYup exactly :) I named July/August for the connection to real people, but yeah it’s pretty much all around us.
- Zardoz84 4mo agoAlso the weekdays in many Latin derived languages.
- bloppe 4mo agoAlso the vast majority of the rest of the vocabulary in those languages
- benj111 4mo ago>Mars While not technically incorrect(?) I'm guessing you meant March?
- baud147258 4mo agoMaybe they're French and forgot to translate that month (in French March = mars)
- toyg 4mo agoYeah, freudian slip.
- epolanski 4mo agoEvery modern law system has its roots in Roman one.
- dpe82 4mo ago> *English Common Law* has entered the chat
- adolph 4mo agoThis brings to mind the wonderful Econtalk episode about Bruno Leoni [0]. The beginning of the podcast describes his untimely passing, which almost seems a Cohen brothers movie plot. So, we pore over Supreme Court cases on the First Amendment, for example, to try to interpret what tests we will use to determine whether something is going to be unconstitutional law. Leoni didn't want that. He argued that--and again, he was proud of the Roman law contribution. He said that the Roman jurist was a sort of scientist: that the object of his research was a solution to cases that citizens submitted to him for study. So, an industrialist or a scientist might look to a physicist to engineer a technical problem. So, private Roman law was something to be described or discovered, not something to be enacted. So, over time, these principles emerge. 0. https://www.econtalk.org/the-underrated-bruno-leoni-with-michael-munger/#audio-highlights https://www.econtalk.org/the-underrated-bruno-leoni-with-mic...
- benj111 4mo agoInteresting. As an unhappy user of the court system I have made these same points. Although I linked it back to the enlightenment. The law should be akin to the scientific method. Unfortunately like science it is full of humans, so reputation is important, etc, etc. unfortunately the judiciary is far worse than the scientific community.
- astrobe_ 4mo agoStill romanian. "The common law—so named because it was common to all the king's courts across England—originated in the practices of the courts of the English kings in the centuries following the Norman Conquest in 1066" [1] France (and Normandy) was conquered by Rome before it was granted to Rollo, a Viking. A few generations later, his descendant William the Conqueror claimed the English crown. Just like what happened with Gauls and Romans, the conquered people adopted large parts of the language and customs of the conqueror. That's why the English language is ~25% of Roman origin for it's vocabulary. I suppose it is the same for English common law. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law#History
- frollogaston 4mo agoThey're always British in film for some reason
- throw4847285 4mo agoNot in the underrated movie The Eagle! In that one, the soldier from the world's dominant global empire has an American accent, and the actual Briton slave has a British accent.
- frollogaston 4mo agoI should watch that one. Not that surprising since it's a British film. There's also Waterloo which cast English as English, Scottish as Scottish, French as American, and German as idk foreign, plus tons of extras either yelling in French or saying nothing in Russian.
- throw4847285 4mo agoAnd of course there's Death of Stalin where everybody just uses either their own accent or they're Jason Isaacs who went for over the top Yorkshire. I love creative accent work in movies. I recently watched Pride and Prejudice, and Donald Sutherland clearly isn't doing an English accent but it works somehow.
- high_5 4mo agoBecause of the allusion to British Empire?
- frollogaston 4mo agoIt's probably because anything set in ancient or medieval times in American film uses British accents. You'll seen it for Rome, Sparta, Macedonia, and even Persia.
- smitty1110 4mo agoNo mention of the Romansch, that's quite disappointing. But learning more about Romania and Romanian culture still made for a wonderful read, kudos to the author.
- dmd 4mo agoThey’re literally the 2nd group mentioned?
- klez 4mo agoUh? They're the second group they talk about, just after the Romanians.
- comrade1234 4mo agoREG: "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?" To me, what would suck the most is living in a place after the Romans where you can see signs of their civilization but you're living a rural peasant life.
- toyg 4mo agoIn many ways, that's how a lot of people feel in modern Britain: everywhere you see signs of XIX century grandeur, but "on the streets" life can feel depressingly backwards.
- Shitty-kitty 4mo agoBrewing alcohol was known to hunter-gatherers. Irrigation, sanitation and water-systems were invented in Mesopotamia (as were cities). Medicine/education, that's the Greeks.
- JumpCrisscross 4mo ago> Irrigation, sanitation and water-systems were invented in Mesopotamia (as were cities) This is sort of like saying computers were invented in Mesopotamia because they did math. Roman water and earth-moving civil engineering was absolutely cutting edge to the degree that the projects they undertook would have been unfathomable to their Bronze-Age predecessors.
- jgilias 4mo agoI am not my grandfather, and neither current descendants of Romans are Romans.
- Shitty-kitty 4mo agoDon't glorify Rome too much. It was a slavery based society that progressed sciences, technology and civilization little from what they inherited from the Mesopotamian's/Greeks. Heck written Latin didn't even have punctuation marks, not even spaces. That's because it was only used by slave scribes. The nobility that could write, did so in Greek.
- jazz9k 4mo agoYawn. More rewriting of history to try to remove successful cultures.
- oersted 4mo agoWhat have the Romans ever done for us?
- WalterBright 4mo agoAre you not entertained?
- quibono 4mo ago> a slavery based society As opposed to the Greeks, Parthians, Ptolemaic Egypt and Judea? Unless you mean "fully dependent on slave labour" - then I guess we can mention Sparta and Athens. > that progressed sciences, technology and civilization little from what they inherited from the Mesopotamian's/Greeks What does "little" mean in this context? This is a very fuzzy concept but this doesn't sound right.
- Shitty-kitty 4mo agoSparta is known for little other than their military prowess, which was a necessity for managing their much larger slave population. Athens had a rather strange system of slavery. The majority of slaves, owned by State, earned wages and worked and lived unattended. It was much more similar to indentured-servitude.
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- antirome321 4mo ago[flagged]
- BigTTYGothGF 4mo ago> negligible ... impact ... overhyped ... empire There's some other ways they've left a mark on you.
- clickety_clack 4mo agoAll right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
- ogogmad 4mo agousername checks out
- A_D_E_P_T 4mo agoThis is strictly about linguistic similarity and not genetic similarity. On a genetic map, a PCA plot, Romans and Romanians simply don't overlap. Romanians cluster with their Balkan neighbors, (1) on account of massive Slavic migration from around the 7th century AD, and (2) on account of strong historical and genetic evidence to suggest that the Roman colonists sent to Dacia were largely recruited from neighboring Balkan provinces (like Moesia and Pannonia), rather than from the city of Rome. Genetically, the nearest populations to Ancient Romans are Cypriots and certain other Mediterranean types, including Anatolians. But it's not neat; there's no clear unambiguous descent. A lot can happen in >1000 years!
- dhosek 4mo agoI still find it somewhat fascinating that the Slavs arrived in Europe during recorded history.
- rnewme 4mo agoArrived in Europe?
- gwerbin 4mo agoThe scale and distances of migrations throughout Europe in the 4th-5th centuries are hard to comprehend, as well as the rapid transformation of the societies of the groups that migrated. It has the same feel to me as a major geological event, like the breaking apart of Pangea.
- pm3003 4mo agoResearch on this topic has been very active since the late 2000s (before that scholars on the topic had been very few). It seems that the scale of the migrations are much better understood now (100k-300k people over 3 centuries). But as you say, the rapid transformation of the societies of the groups that migrated at the time is very hard to comprehend, but also the changes of those where they migrated, in cases where it was more of a fusion than an invasion / displacement. I think it is a very interesting point to offer to those in Europe minimizing the current migration waves (often for noble reasons of reducing racism and countering far right ideologies). It's no use denying that welcoming tens of millions of people from other cultures over a few decades has and will have very deep social and political effects.
- 4rtem 4mo agoI bought a torrone (Italian nougat dessert) in local Auchan (French supermarket chain) today and while briefly researching the dessert history found out that it was popular in Ancient Rome named as cupedia and in some Southern parts of Italy it still called as cupeta. Just imagine to make recipe so good that it not just transferred across generations through 2000 years, but also evolved to come in supermarket in Russia.
- amarcheschi 4mo agoIf you feel daring, there's a group of people publishing ancient roman recipes up to Renaissance ones (and a bit later as well) in italian and English https://historicalitaliancooking.home.blog/recipes/ https://historicalitaliancooking.home.blog/recipes/
- rich_sasha 4mo agoOnly loosely related, but on the topic of deep historical namings: Mayonnaise comes from, and derives its name, from Mahon on Menorca in the Spanish Balearic islands. That in turn is named after Mago Barca, the brother of Hannibal Barca, "the" Hannibal who almost destroyed Rome. Mago was also a Carthaginian general, fighting alongside Hannibal. So whenever you dip your french fries in mayo, you are celebrating the epic struggles of Carthage and Rome from two millenia ago. Bon appétit.
- dormento 4mo agoAllow me to recommend the AMAZING "Tasting History" YT channel, by Max Miller. He does history research into many different periods so he can cook the most authentic dishes, and has done a bunch of episodes on Greek and Roman culture.
- Zardoz84 4mo agoThere was a Roman recipe of what we call now burger.
- pm3003 4mo agoPissaladière (classic dish from southeastern France) is sometimes said to come from old garum-like recipes (the Roman functional equivalent to Asian soy sauces).
- jumploops 4mo agoAs an American with mostly Western European ancestors (according to a popular DNA testing site), I've always considered Romans as some distant/tangentially related group. It was surprising to find out that I have "ancient" DNA matches with a couple of Roman and Etruscan individuals. Small world!
- fcatalan 4mo agoMy grandfather was a smith in deep rural Spain. He made and fixed many roman ploughs, well into the 70s. They were called that because they were pretty much the same tool the Romans used.
- rob74 4mo agoI'm a bit surprised that the "people from modern Rome" only got an honorable mention. After all, Rome still sees itself as the successor of the Roman Empire. When first visiting it, I was surprised to see the famous SPQR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPQR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPQR) acronym all over the place - on trash cans, manhole covers etc. etc.
- DuperPower 4mo agowhen you see something histórical in Europe ask chatgpt if its something actually ancient that lasted until today or It was a xix century tourist marketing stunt made by the burgoisie
- rob74 4mo agoOf course the manhole covers aren't ancient, but they're a sign that Rome still sees itself in the tradition of the Roman Empire.
- scheme271 4mo agoOr alterntively, that it's a relatively modern addition to add to it's mystique for tourism purposes. When did SPQR get added to the manhole covers and does anything else in Rome use similar signage?
- tar0m 4mo agoAs a Roman, this is a bit painful to read. I will play fair and assume you are not trying to say that the only thing there is to my city is tourist attractions. The answer is no (and you can easily look this up). SPQR has been used continually since the Roman Empire, through the Middle Ages, by the Fascists and into the modern era by the current administration. You will find it everywhere, even far removed from tourist areas, and there is absolutely no mystique to it. It just means "this is public property of the city". You will also find it on the city's website and on pretty much all symbols of the city. Some of those manhole covers even predate the era of mass tourism... I had one in my yard on the outskirts of the city when I was a kid.
- muvlon 4mo agoBesides Romanians, there are several more eastern european romance-language-speaking peoples ("Vlachs") like Aromanians, Megleno-Romanians and Istro-Romanians. I think they might also deserve a mention.
- xdennis 4mo agoRomanian is isolated now, but even quite recently there where languages forming a bridge between Romanian and the rest of Romance languages. For example Dalmatian, whose last speaker died in 1898. Now, most people think of Dalmatians as the dogs.
- pm3003 4mo agoTalking about Vlachs, Welsch is a derogatory noun for Romance language speakers around the French-German border.
- gedy 4mo agoFeel I should mention the Istro-Romanians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istro-Romanians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istro-Romanians), a small group of Romanian speakers who settled in Istria (now Croatia) some centuries ago. Mostly gone now but one grandmother was from one of the Romanian speaking villages.
- r0m4n0 4mo agoMy name is Roman (father was Italian born in Rome and identifies as a Roman) and I always find it interesting that people try to speak something that sounds like Russian to me. Never thought about the fact they might think I’m Romanian and are speaking Romanian!
- coccinelle 4mo agoI don’t know, I do associate the name Roman with Russia just because the only Roman I can think of is Roman Abramovich.
- mircea 4mo agoRomanian sounds like Latin, not like Russian :)
- inkyoto 4mo agoWell. The Latin version of Roman is Romanus, which is believed to have descended from Romulus, one of the two legendary founders of Rome. The popularity of Roman in Eastern and Western Slavic cultures is likely due to the cultural influence of the Byzantine Empire. Roman is also a rather popular name in Spanish speaking Latin American countries (Román) and is not entirely unknown in Germany (same spelling).
- Tade0 4mo agoLike others stated, it's more likely they assume you have e.g. Russian roots, as among Slavs that name is the most popular in territories where Cyrillic is the primary script. Romanian sounds way more like Italian than any Slavic language.
- eur0pa 4mo agoI’m still around
- fhars 4mo agoDepending on who's legal fiction you believe, the Roman Empire was only dissolved in 1806 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsdeputationshauptschluss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsdeputationshauptschluss
- trinix912 4mo agoThat’s the German Holy Roman Empire, not the classical Roman Empire.
- trashb 4mo agoI think even in the Roman times anyone could be "Roman". The way I understand it being Roman was not a measure of your ethnicity but a measure of your devotion to the empire. Rome was an extremely militaristic society so they needed soldiers and what I understand is that your status in the military largely dictated your status in society. They requited soldiers from all of their empire thus all backgrounds within (late period).
- meta_gunslinger 4mo agoThat's not true. Roman citizenship was sacrosant, there was even a war during the late Roman Republic time between the Romans and allied Italians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_War_(91%E2%80%9387_BC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_War_(91%E2%80%9387_BC) fought over it. During the Roman Empire, Caracalla extended citizenship to everyone mainly to spite the Senate.
- trashb 4mo agoCan you provide another source for that? There are two threads in the ancient accounts: one depicting the struggle as one for Roman citizenship and another as one against Roman domination. The war in article you link seems to be fought over the Italian towns wanting to maintain control over their lands and people, not religion. The following two articles barely mention religious status. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_citizenship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_citizenship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_ancient_Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_ancient_Rome I think there is no denying that religion was important in Rome. However what I can gather the Military was more important for citizenship and status. Military service was one of the main ways to upgrade your social status. For non-citizens, the reward of Roman citizenship after 25 years' military service offered social transformation, not only for themselves, but their families too. https://www.britishmuseum.org/blog/introduction-legion-life-roman-army https://www.britishmuseum.org/blog/introduction-legion-life-...
- meta_gunslinger 4mo agoI was using the word 'sacrosanct' in a figurative way.
- poulpy123 4mo agoSo the romani arrived in the balkan in the 10th century and in western Europe in the 13th century are romans but not the Italians outside Rome
- johndear223 4mo ago[dead]
- Tade0 4mo ago> This root word also survives in the names of other Roman border regions across Europe, like Wales, Cornwall, and Wallonia. ... and the Polish term for Italy - "Włochy".
- Gupie 4mo agoThe citizens of Byzantium identified as being Romans. Interesting, many Greek Christians still did at the time that the modern Greek state was created. When told they are "Hellenes" they responded that they have always been "Romioi".
- bloppe 4mo agoFor a much more convincing chronicle of people identifying as Roman well into the modern era, see https://open.spotify.com/episode/66SexoFR9AvdKaDzWaqR8w https://open.spotify.com/episode/66SexoFR9AvdKaDzWaqR8w
- 1-more 4mo agoIf we include the word Latin, then we have speakers of Ladino (also called Judeo-Spanish) and Ladin (natively called ladino). The first is derived from Old Spanish and spoken by Sephardic Jews everywhere but in Spain where they were expelled from. The latter is spoken in Northern Italy, specifically in South Tyrol, Trentino and Belluno. The names are funny just because you can imagine asking someone speaking a language derived from Vulgar Latin what language they're speaking (or writing), and them answering as a fish would when asked about the water.
- sailfast 4mo agoThere are probably a number of more Roman cultural hallmarks around than what are mentioned in the article but they don’t have something that sounds like Rome in the name. Some tenuous stuff here that is quite random, but hey I clicked.
- throw4847285 4mo agoI don't know why people are so confused about where the Romans are. There is a guy named Harun Osman Osmanoğlu and he's the current Caesar of Rome. It's pretty simple.
- ecshafer 4mo agoYou are mistaken. Karl von Habsburg is the Caesar of Rome.
- throw4847285 4mo agoActually, it's a finance bro named Jean-Christophe.
- sherburt3 4mo agoGod punished the Romans by turning them into Italians
- TheGRS 4mo agoI feel like that wasn't nearly as interesting as the title promised. The stuff that I find fascinating about modern Europe against the Roman Empire is how it carved out the modern dividing lines in some areas, or seeded cultural roots that would become their own thing over time (the British being a pretty interesting one). But its all so long ago that all of the other influences that happened over time are probably bigger hallmarks than their Roman roots (like the British again, being invaded by the normans and vikings).
- gorfian_robot 4mo agoplus roads
- gorfian_robot 4mo agowhen visiting the jewish temple in rome someone asked if the roman jews were sephardic or ashkenazi. the answer was 'neither' as there have been jews in rome since before rome and they never left and didn't see themselves as part of the diaspora