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It’s hard to feel any enthusiasm for democracy watching things you disagree with being pushed through and having no power to stop it. I signed the petition to r

by cedws 4mo ago

It’s hard to feel any enthusiasm for democracy watching things you disagree with being pushed through and having no power to stop it. I signed the petition to reverse the OSA and all we got was a canned response. I’ve come to the conclusion the only thing you can really do is leave when you disagree with the direction of your country, but of course not everyone has the ability to do that.

nozzlegear 4mo ago
> It’s hard to feel any enthusiasm for democracy watching things you disagree with being pushed through and having no power to stop it. That often is democracy: what's popular isn't always what's best.
- lokar 4mo ago
  I find that many comments on this subject here don’t seem to consider that a majority (perhaps a large majority) of citizens in their nation support these policies
  - marcus_holmes 4mo ago
    Because they don't understand the technology or the consequences. When they do, they will change their mind (and probably protest loudly that they never wanted it in the first place). See Brexit for a clear example.
    - lokar 4mo ago
      But the argument I see is that the politicians are acting tyrannically against the desire of the voters.
      - marcus_holmes 3mo ago
        some voters. The voters who actually understand the technology and the consequences
- zugi 4mo ago
  That's why democracy shouldn't be worshipped as the end-all be-all key to good government or good society. Or as Churchill put it, democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. Freedom and liberty should be the foundations of a healthy society. Democracy should be reserved only for those things that must be decided collectively and universally enforced. What kids do on their phones doesn't even come close. Let parents and vendors decide what their kids and customers can do. I've met plenty of well-adjusted kids who aren't on social media because their parents don't let them.
marcus_holmes 4mo ago
This is what protest is for/about. If enough people feel strongly about it to go onto the street and wave placards, that starts getting noticed and has to be acknowledged. Of course, the UK (and others) have started making protests illegal, because they are doing things that we should feel strongly enough about to go and wave placards at them.
- leoedin 3mo ago
  The problem I've found is that enough people don't feel strongly about it. I've had plenty of conversations recently where people say "yeah, but social media is harming kids. Banning it is good". People broadly see the headline "think of the children" and think, "yup, let's protect children". To me, there's all sorts of downsides - the death of small discussion forums, pushing interesting online experiences out of the reach of teenagers, the creeping surveillance and, worst of all, the complete end of the open internet (when inevitably it doesn't actually work). But most non-tech people just don't see that. The currently in place age verificaton system is a joke. It's trivial to circumvent them - not just via VPN, but also because there's countless websites that just don't care. The social media ban will bring more of the same - and then they'll have to ban VPNs and bring in website firewalls. Who wins? The established tech companies, who have big enough legal departments to comply with increasing red tape. How is a new social network going to legitimately compete with Facebook now? But when I say all this to people I know, they just don't see it. Most people are not tech people.
  - marcus_holmes 3mo ago
    100% agree. And because I don't have kids, I'm presumed to not have any skin in the game - like the websites are not going to ask me my age or something.
pjc50 3mo ago
I do think people should consider trying a bit harder to change the opinions of their fellow citizens. Yes, this is a lot of work; yes, I've mostly delegated this myself by paying money to the Open Rights Group. But if you start from the position that everyone else is a newspaper-brainwashed idiot then of course it's going to look a bit dark. I also think there's more of what I'd call "grassroots British libertarianism" than you'd expect. It's just in tension with Daily Mail-ism, often in the same people. They just don't want onerous rules applied to them.
- matthewmorgan 3mo ago
  Do you ever spend time thinking about your own opinions, or just other people's?
  - pjc50 3mo ago
    ?

by cedws 4mo ago

nozzlegear 4mo ago

> It’s hard to feel any enthusiasm for democracy watching things you disagree with being pushed through and having no power to stop it. That often is democracy: what's popular isn't always what's best.

lokar 4mo ago
I find that many comments on this subject here don’t seem to consider that a majority (perhaps a large majority) of citizens in their nation support these policies
- marcus_holmes 4mo ago
  Because they don't understand the technology or the consequences. When they do, they will change their mind (and probably protest loudly that they never wanted it in the first place). See Brexit for a clear example.
  - lokar 4mo ago
    But the argument I see is that the politicians are acting tyrannically against the desire of the voters.
    - marcus_holmes 3mo ago
      some voters. The voters who actually understand the technology and the consequences
zugi 4mo ago
That's why democracy shouldn't be worshipped as the end-all be-all key to good government or good society. Or as Churchill put it, democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. Freedom and liberty should be the foundations of a healthy society. Democracy should be reserved only for those things that must be decided collectively and universally enforced. What kids do on their phones doesn't even come close. Let parents and vendors decide what their kids and customers can do. I've met plenty of well-adjusted kids who aren't on social media because their parents don't let them.

marcus_holmes 4mo ago

This is what protest is for/about. If enough people feel strongly about it to go onto the street and wave placards, that starts getting noticed and has to be acknowledged. Of course, the UK (and others) have started making protests illegal, because they are doing things that we should feel strongly enough about to go and wave placards at them.

leoedin 3mo ago
The problem I've found is that enough people don't feel strongly about it. I've had plenty of conversations recently where people say "yeah, but social media is harming kids. Banning it is good". People broadly see the headline "think of the children" and think, "yup, let's protect children". To me, there's all sorts of downsides - the death of small discussion forums, pushing interesting online experiences out of the reach of teenagers, the creeping surveillance and, worst of all, the complete end of the open internet (when inevitably it doesn't actually work). But most non-tech people just don't see that. The currently in place age verificaton system is a joke. It's trivial to circumvent them - not just via VPN, but also because there's countless websites that just don't care. The social media ban will bring more of the same - and then they'll have to ban VPNs and bring in website firewalls. Who wins? The established tech companies, who have big enough legal departments to comply with increasing red tape. How is a new social network going to legitimately compete with Facebook now? But when I say all this to people I know, they just don't see it. Most people are not tech people.
- marcus_holmes 3mo ago
  100% agree. And because I don't have kids, I'm presumed to not have any skin in the game - like the websites are not going to ask me my age or something.

pjc50 3mo ago

I do think people should consider trying a bit harder to change the opinions of their fellow citizens. Yes, this is a lot of work; yes, I've mostly delegated this myself by paying money to the Open Rights Group. But if you start from the position that everyone else is a newspaper-brainwashed idiot then of course it's going to look a bit dark. I also think there's more of what I'd call "grassroots British libertarianism" than you'd expect. It's just in tension with Daily Mail-ism, often in the same people. They just don't want onerous rules applied to them.

matthewmorgan 3mo ago
Do you ever spend time thinking about your own opinions, or just other people's?
- pjc50 3mo ago
  ?