5 ms·
This is a very... US comment to make.
by orbital-decay 4mo ago
This is a very... US comment to make.
- impossiblefork 4mo agoYes and no. Weapons are normal here too.
- stefanfisk 4mo agoShooting intruders isn’t though. They’d basically have to attack you first for lethal force to be legal.
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- MemoryHoleHQ 4mo agoIf a masked person, that doesn't first identify themselves clearly as the police (which is difficult since, well, they are masked) breaks into my house, that's a lethal attack for sure. What are you going to do after they enter the house (if they aren't indeed the police and you trust they won't kill or rape your family)?
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- impossiblefork 4mo agoThis is not the law here in Sweden, at least. We don't have precedent in the way that common law countries do, and the judgements in actual cases point in slightly different directions-- in one case a court felt that the failure to fire a warning shot made it not self-defence, in another fighting people trying to get into an apartment with a knife was deemed acceptable. Generally though, if someone is breaking into your apartment while you're there, possibly trying to get at you, there's no limit, as long as you're actually trying to defend yourself (so no executing someone who you've clearly disabled, etc.). If people are breaking into your apartment and you fire a warning shot, then proceed to shoot the attackers, no one will complain.
- stefanfisk 4mo agoI am Swedish, and it’s very true that ”it depends”. This guy for example was convicted of murder because he got his gun out without even trying to contact the police directly or indirectly. So even if he pulled the trigger under reasonable circumstances (a know violent offender was trying to take his rifle) he was found guilty because he should not have gone for the gun without considering alternatives like locking the door or fleeing. I can’t see him being anywhere near guaranteed to claim self defense even if he had fired a warning shot first. https://svenskjakt.se/start/nyhet/skot-inkraktare-med-algstudsare-doms-till-fangelse/ https://svenskjakt.se/start/nyhet/skot-inkraktare-med-algstu...
- impossiblefork 4mo agoYes. I am Swedish too. Notice again the lack of warning shots. The courts really want you to do one.
- l23k4 4mo ago> They’d basically have to attack you first for lethal force to be legal. They just violently entered his home in an effort to attack him, dressed in a way designed to intimidate. These cops were deliberately cosplaying as some sort of a hit squad, they obviously wanted him to believe that they were going to kill him. It's not like the cops just accidentally went out dressed like that.
- stefanfisk 4mo agoThis is Denmark, not some Brasilian favela. That type of violent crime extremely rare in Scandinavia. But cops wearing civilian clothes while conducting a raid is fairly normal. Especially when they want to preserve evidence which might be quickly destroyed if the suspect sees them coming.
- l23k4 4mo ago> This is Denmark, not some Brasilian favela Yet they're dressed exactly like a hit squad in a Brazilian favela! >Especially when they want to preserve evidence which might be quickly destroyed if the suspect sees them coming. Somehow cops elsewhere manage this just fine in appropriate attire.
- stefanfisk 4mo agoThey're also dressed exactly like a group of random middle aged men. Naturally, getting raided is scary as fuck. And them being plain clothed certainly doesn't make it less so. But based on the part of the video which he chose to shared I don't see why one would suspect anyone other than the police. Had they been out to kill him it would have been easier to just go in blasting instead of yelling while using a battering ram. Hit squads are truly exotic here. Plain clothes police raids are not, although the norm is for them to be uniformed. I have no idea on why they chose to be plain clothed instead of uniformed on this occasion, but I can't see why we would attribute it to "cosplaying as some sort of a hit squad". Another possibility, which I believe is somewhat common, is that they can take him away without making him look like a criminal in the eyes of his neighbors. Where in Europe are you from? I get the impression that you are used to a very different kind of society.
- JuniperMesos 4mo agoThere have been cases in the US where homeowners shot cops dead who were in the process of unexpectedly raiding their home, because the homeowner had no idea they were cops and not home invasion robbers; and in some cases have been acquitted of murder charges by juries for this. I'd personally like to see the laws protecting this strengthened, to make sure that cops aren't charging unannounced into peoples' homes and then charging the homeowner with murder when they react with reasonable gun violence in self-defense.
- ktallett 4mo agoI would much prefer a society where all homeowners and cops don't carry guns and cops were fired for illegal raids.
- MemoryHoleHQ 4mo ago[dead]
- LtWorf 4mo agoMe too, but I bet the cops did carry.
- nxm 4mo agoThat’s not the real world. Criminals will always find a way to get guns no matter the amount of gun control you impose, so I’d rather have law abiding citizens be armed as well
- koonsolo 4mo agoNo it is not. Europeans can have guns, and there was a recent case in Belgium where such a thing happened.
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- Jolter 4mo agoI’m pretty sure you’re not allowed to use your legal firearms against people in Denmark. Even in a home intrusion event.
- l23k4 4mo agoIn the EU the answer is always "it's unclear". Yes you can, but you also can't. ECHR necessarily guarantees the right to shoot some intruders in some situations, but it's kind of impossible to know which situations those are except after the fact.
- mortarion 4mo agoYou can if there's a direct threat to your life (i.e. you can see that the intruder is also armed). But you can't use it against someone for just entering your premises illegally. It needs to be a clear and present danger.
- Sammi 4mo agoThis was in Denmark
- l23k4 4mo agoI'm fully European, would not wonder for a second before plunging a knife into an intruder if I happened to have one near me.
- tmtvl 4mo agoReally? 'Oh, someone I don't know! stab'? What if the person is plain-clothes law enforcement? Or a special needs person who somehow managed to wander into the wrong house? Or your sibling's new partner they want to introduce to you? Anyway, unless you actually have stabbed someone before you don't know whether you got what it takes until you're actually in a situation where you find out.
- selcuka 4mo agoThey broke down the door.
- l23k4 4mo ago>Anyway, unless you actually have stabbed someone before you don't know whether you got what it takes until you're actually in a situation where you find out. A guy tried to rob me, I fractured his skull with my iphone before I even realized what was going on. You don't just freeze when someone suddenly attacks you, you'll try to swing at them with whatever you have at hand. At home? I might just have been cooking, or carving a sunday roast. Who knows? But if someone suddenly smashed through my door, I'm pretty sure that whatever object happens to be in my hand would be heading towards the intruder long before I've had time to think about what's going on.
- edelbitter 4mo agoA German police officer was fatally shot in 2010 after failing to identify himself when his manipulation on the door had alerted the known-armed subject of a planned search. The shooter was (eventually) acquitted. Though the circumstances were rather unusual, the court noted that in that specific case, the inability to ascertain the nature & extent of the threat within available time made acting this way based on his assumptions excusable. https://www.bundesgerichtshof.de/SharedDocs/Entscheidungen/DE/Strafsenate/2_StS/2011/2_StR_375-11.pdf https://www.bundesgerichtshof.de/SharedDocs/Entscheidungen/D...
- selcuka 4mo agoI've never lived in the US. Spent the majority of my adult life in Europe, and the country I currently live in (Australia) has very strict gun laws. That being said, if I were a police officer I wouldn't rule out the possibility.