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Engagement metrics fed into recommendations algorithms are the paperclip maximizers that feed humanity's collective poison. Europe should do the one thing it k

Engagement metrics fed into recommendations algorithms are the paperclip maximizers that feed humanity's collective poison. Europe should do the one thing it knows how to do: regulate. For once, it is the answer. Do it only there. The rest of the dominos will fall. Making a european branded humanity poisoner is not the answer. Specifically, regulating against silent signals like watch time and comment count. Upvotes/likes can serve a purpose and would not cause the situation we're in now. We need to get specific about the real issue.

stephen_cagle 4mo ago
Do you mean regulating "watch time and comment count" at the presentation (to the client) or the server (business/analytics) level? If the later, how would you even enforce that?
- throwaway13337 4mo ago
  Like all good regulation, it would only kick in after a company has a large reach. So as to not snuff out startups and cause regulatory capture problems that are already so common. Telling big companies to be transparent about their suggestion algorithms would not be hard. I think governments already do this? wasn't that a tiktok thing in the US? Anyway, it's well within government's reach. Telling companies to only use signals that people consciously give seems like a no-brainer. Well, I mean, if you believe that a goal of civilization is to respect the free will of individuals up until the point that that free will becomes a problem for other people. The alternative is something less than respectful of human dignity.
  - sneak 4mo ago
    Laws that don’t apply to all people equally are unjust laws. Penalizing the successful is also inherently rewarding the unsuccessful. You can’t do one without the other.
    - roughly 4mo ago
      They apply equally to all people who run a company of a particular size with a particular user count.
      - sneak 4mo ago
        All animals are equal, but certain animals are more equal than others.
  - stephen_cagle 4mo ago
    I'm only partially convinced. I just can't see how you could really know if a company is using a hidden metric (or some sort of proxy for that metric so that they are not technically in violation) for figuring out what to promote. Short of having constants audits, how would you ever really know? But my skepticism may be unfounded. Do you have examples of companies that are currently working with regulators to allow full auditing of their content promotion policies? Are they actually auditing these partnerships or are they simply accepting promises from the companies?
gf263 4mo ago
I want to see the ability to opt out of algorithmic feeds regulated. Allow the people to poison themselves, but allow people to opt out
Radle 4mo ago
We europeans can do more than regulate, your statement is just plain offensive. You would now that if you ever went to a proper school. Those unfortunately are not widely available on your side of the pond.
- wilg 4mo ago
  https://www.statista.com/chart/30934/world-best-universities-by-country-ranking/ https://www.statista.com/chart/30934/world-best-universities...
  - Radle 4mo ago
    Yes, but us universities aren’t financially accessible to most people and access depends more on connections and families than merit. But your link also is only relevant to the university system. It doesn’t change the fact that the non university part of education is severely financially crippled in major areas of the country in order to hinder black people from getting proper education. Combined with a burnout introducing system of standardized tests the us educational system is truly world leading. At demonstrating how NOT to do education.
    - iamnothere 4mo ago
      > us universities aren’t financially accessible to most people On the contrary, they are too accessible due to enormous tuition bills and federally guaranteed student loans (which cannot be discharged in bankruptcy). This toxic combination saddles many graduates with debt they will struggle to pay off for decades. Almost as if it was intended to create a modern form of debt slave. > access depends more on connections and families than merit. Only true for small elite private colleges these days. Even most of the big top schools have tried to move away from legacy admissions. State schools also have problems with excessive tuition expenses, but the value is still there for high-demand undergraduate degrees (mostly just for connections and job access afterwards) and definitely for a Master’s. They also accept almost anyone regardless of educational background. US trade schools are a fantastic value, and more people should take advantage of them. They are a great option, but too many people don’t realize that for many careers a trade school or community college is perfectly adequate and won’t hold you back or saddle you with a mountain of debt. > Combined with a burnout introducing system of standardized tests Our standardized testing has problems, but it’s really not that stressful or difficult compared to, say, much of SE Asia.
heldergg 4mo ago
And the regulation doesn't need to be overly complicated: * Ban targeted ads or make them opt in; * Ban targeted content or make it opt in; * Enforce the use of a do not track header - if the user does not want to be tracked a simple browser or OS setting should be enough.

stephen_cagle 4mo ago

Do you mean regulating "watch time and comment count" at the presentation (to the client) or the server (business/analytics) level? If the later, how would you even enforce that?

throwaway13337 4mo ago
Like all good regulation, it would only kick in after a company has a large reach. So as to not snuff out startups and cause regulatory capture problems that are already so common. Telling big companies to be transparent about their suggestion algorithms would not be hard. I think governments already do this? wasn't that a tiktok thing in the US? Anyway, it's well within government's reach. Telling companies to only use signals that people consciously give seems like a no-brainer. Well, I mean, if you believe that a goal of civilization is to respect the free will of individuals up until the point that that free will becomes a problem for other people. The alternative is something less than respectful of human dignity.
- sneak 4mo ago
  Laws that don’t apply to all people equally are unjust laws. Penalizing the successful is also inherently rewarding the unsuccessful. You can’t do one without the other.
  - roughly 4mo ago
    They apply equally to all people who run a company of a particular size with a particular user count.
    - sneak 4mo ago
      All animals are equal, but certain animals are more equal than others.
- stephen_cagle 4mo ago
  I'm only partially convinced. I just can't see how you could really know if a company is using a hidden metric (or some sort of proxy for that metric so that they are not technically in violation) for figuring out what to promote. Short of having constants audits, how would you ever really know? But my skepticism may be unfounded. Do you have examples of companies that are currently working with regulators to allow full auditing of their content promotion policies? Are they actually auditing these partnerships or are they simply accepting promises from the companies?

gf263 4mo ago

I want to see the ability to opt out of algorithmic feeds regulated. Allow the people to poison themselves, but allow people to opt out

Radle 4mo ago

We europeans can do more than regulate, your statement is just plain offensive. You would now that if you ever went to a proper school. Those unfortunately are not widely available on your side of the pond.

wilg 4mo ago
https://www.statista.com/chart/30934/world-best-universities-by-country-ranking/ https://www.statista.com/chart/30934/world-best-universities...
- Radle 4mo ago
  Yes, but us universities aren’t financially accessible to most people and access depends more on connections and families than merit. But your link also is only relevant to the university system. It doesn’t change the fact that the non university part of education is severely financially crippled in major areas of the country in order to hinder black people from getting proper education. Combined with a burnout introducing system of standardized tests the us educational system is truly world leading. At demonstrating how NOT to do education.
  - iamnothere 4mo ago
    > us universities aren’t financially accessible to most people On the contrary, they are too accessible due to enormous tuition bills and federally guaranteed student loans (which cannot be discharged in bankruptcy). This toxic combination saddles many graduates with debt they will struggle to pay off for decades. Almost as if it was intended to create a modern form of debt slave. > access depends more on connections and families than merit. Only true for small elite private colleges these days. Even most of the big top schools have tried to move away from legacy admissions. State schools also have problems with excessive tuition expenses, but the value is still there for high-demand undergraduate degrees (mostly just for connections and job access afterwards) and definitely for a Master’s. They also accept almost anyone regardless of educational background. US trade schools are a fantastic value, and more people should take advantage of them. They are a great option, but too many people don’t realize that for many careers a trade school or community college is perfectly adequate and won’t hold you back or saddle you with a mountain of debt. > Combined with a burnout introducing system of standardized tests Our standardized testing has problems, but it’s really not that stressful or difficult compared to, say, much of SE Asia.

heldergg 4mo ago

And the regulation doesn't need to be overly complicated: * Ban targeted ads or make them opt in; * Ban targeted content or make it opt in; * Enforce the use of a do not track header - if the user does not want to be tracked a simple browser or OS setting should be enough.