4 ms·

Totally agree! For anyone who still thinks kids should use AI, another argument to make is we are still figuring out AI (hence the constant debate on it, hype,

Totally agree! For anyone who still thinks kids should use AI, another argument to make is we are still figuring out AI (hence the constant debate on it, hype, uncertainty, boundaries of its capabilities etc etc). I don't think anyone with right mind can disagree with that. Keeping that mind, wouldn't it make sense to at-the-very-least tread with caution when it comes to kids.

iwontberude 4mo ago
Whether they should or not is a moot point. They are using it and we need to figure out how to organise society to deal with it.
- rwmj 4mo ago
  We're in like year 2 or 3 of LLMs being serious tools, still with many disadvantages over humans. There's plenty of time to figure things out, we don't need to experiment on children right now.
- Nux 4mo ago
  Return to pen and paper, particularly for testing. Extend school time for doing supervised "homework" that doesn't involve the Internet. Like that?
  - alchemism 4mo ago
    Yes, make the teachers on $25-35K annual salaries do /more/ work for no extra money. I'm sure that will fix education.
    - qsera 4mo ago
      I am conflicted on this. One part of me think that they deserve a lot more compensation. But I am not really sure if that should be in the form of a salary rise.
      - vasachi 4mo ago
        Why not?
        qsera 4mo ago
        Because those who are attracted by the high pay might not be the best ones to do the job.
        chadgpt3 4mo ago
        that's true about every job. Even computers were better when nerds ran them.
        qsera 4mo ago
        While true, not all jobs are equally critical in that regard. A bad programmer probably can be detected easily. But the effects of a generation of bad teachers might only show up after many decades!
        sethammons 4mo ago
        I left teaching and have, literally, 10x'd my annual income after a few years. While teaching, I couldn't afford to support my family of four. We don't need people stressing and struggling financially for the privilege of teaching our youth. That leaves those without a better option or have a working spouse.
        qsera 4mo ago
        So that is why I said teachers should be compensated well but may be by other means than paying out a large sum as salary. For example, if you were able to get free education for your children as part of your payment, wouldn't that have made your life a lot easier?
    - em500 4mo ago
      Just to be accurate, median annual salary is over $62k accross the US for kindergarten and elementary school teachers, with California nearing 100k. [1] https://www.onetonline.org/link/localwages/25-2021.00?st=CA https://www.onetonline.org/link/localwages/25-2021.00?st=CA
    - duduijskkzz 4mo ago
      While a bit hyperbolic this is a major issue. “Workload” has been a constant argument for just about any tech product we acquired at school. I’m very conflicted about this issue to be honest. I’m a member of one of those parent management boards type things, not sure what’s it called in English. One the one hand I know how busy teachers are, on the other I also know how they never work to 5PM have twice my vacation days, while somehow never being able to meet to talk about issues. We get one ten minute session every few months at best. If you put pressure on them they call in sick for weeks and good luck finding a replacement. I’m deeply worried that if teaching as a whole doesn’t get it together we will slowly be forced to use AI for everything because of lack of alternatives.
    - ben_w 4mo ago
      That's a straw man. That pay range is roughly what teachers get in former-USSR/Warsaw Pact eastern Europe, and in those countries it's a comfortable income. Also, going back to what they did a few years ago isn't "more work". May actually be less, given how often people look at AI output, roll their eyes, and say "ugh, slop". Also also, questions of pay are obviously after society decides what it wants the role of a teacher to be and finds out how much it needs to spend to hire enough people who will do whatever that job turns out to be.
- qsera 4mo ago
  > figure out how to organise society to deal with it. Yea, need to figure out to form society with participants who are incapable of thinking... And to make matters worse the LLMs that is causing this cannot even really think!
cornholio 4mo ago
The counterargument is that kids will live in a world different from our own. For example, in many countries children lost the ability to write cursive; that used to be a critical skill comparable to literacy itself. But in our current society, that's no longer the case and you can be very successful without it, but there are other skills, such as using technology, that became critical. Any definitive claim to know what are the right things kids should learn in a moment of rapid technological shift is probably garbage and just a projection of our own biases.
- lostlogin 4mo ago
  I went through a Steiner school from pre-school to end of high school. It’s highly opinionated and very controlling initially. When you paint, you start with one colour. Then another day you get the next (there were only primary colours, because of course). You eat at your desk, then you’re allowed to play. This was dropped after a year or so. You don’t learn to read until you’re 7, etc etc. However, by the end of high school it was up to the individual how much they achieved, and there was minimal pressure. As long as you weren’t messing with other kids, you could do a little or much as you please, and consequences were minimal. Tools and skills were introduced at a developmentally appropriate age - not sure who chose that age though. There was a lot wrong with the school and the system, but there was a lot more that was right in my opinion.
  - hgomersall 4mo ago
    Yeah, I we considered a Steiner school because I think that extensive play is a super critical part of a good education. The problem is you also need to be able to be part of the mainstream system at some point, and it felt like it didn't necessarily quite meet that goal.
    - creesch 4mo ago
      Also worth considering is that it is part of a broader ideology of Anthroposophy which sometimes aproaches semi cult status in how people identify with it. A lot of the principles of Steiner schools are actually pretty cool, but sending your kid there, depending on the school they will also be dealing with the more esoteric bits of all of this that have very little to do with didactic or pedagogic sound principles. Some if it includes some schools teaching some of the more racists views of Mr Steiner.

iwontberude 4mo ago

Whether they should or not is a moot point. They are using it and we need to figure out how to organise society to deal with it.

rwmj 4mo ago
We're in like year 2 or 3 of LLMs being serious tools, still with many disadvantages over humans. There's plenty of time to figure things out, we don't need to experiment on children right now.
Nux 4mo ago
Return to pen and paper, particularly for testing. Extend school time for doing supervised "homework" that doesn't involve the Internet. Like that?
- alchemism 4mo ago
  Yes, make the teachers on $25-35K annual salaries do /more/ work for no extra money. I'm sure that will fix education.
  - qsera 4mo ago
    I am conflicted on this. One part of me think that they deserve a lot more compensation. But I am not really sure if that should be in the form of a salary rise.
    - vasachi 4mo ago
      Why not?
      - qsera 4mo ago
        Because those who are attracted by the high pay might not be the best ones to do the job.
        chadgpt3 4mo ago
        that's true about every job. Even computers were better when nerds ran them.
        qsera 4mo ago
        While true, not all jobs are equally critical in that regard. A bad programmer probably can be detected easily. But the effects of a generation of bad teachers might only show up after many decades!
        sethammons 4mo ago
        I left teaching and have, literally, 10x'd my annual income after a few years. While teaching, I couldn't afford to support my family of four. We don't need people stressing and struggling financially for the privilege of teaching our youth. That leaves those without a better option or have a working spouse.
        qsera 4mo ago
        So that is why I said teachers should be compensated well but may be by other means than paying out a large sum as salary. For example, if you were able to get free education for your children as part of your payment, wouldn't that have made your life a lot easier?
  - em500 4mo ago
    Just to be accurate, median annual salary is over $62k accross the US for kindergarten and elementary school teachers, with California nearing 100k. [1] https://www.onetonline.org/link/localwages/25-2021.00?st=CA https://www.onetonline.org/link/localwages/25-2021.00?st=CA
  - duduijskkzz 4mo ago
    While a bit hyperbolic this is a major issue. “Workload” has been a constant argument for just about any tech product we acquired at school. I’m very conflicted about this issue to be honest. I’m a member of one of those parent management boards type things, not sure what’s it called in English. One the one hand I know how busy teachers are, on the other I also know how they never work to 5PM have twice my vacation days, while somehow never being able to meet to talk about issues. We get one ten minute session every few months at best. If you put pressure on them they call in sick for weeks and good luck finding a replacement. I’m deeply worried that if teaching as a whole doesn’t get it together we will slowly be forced to use AI for everything because of lack of alternatives.
  - ben_w 4mo ago
    That's a straw man. That pay range is roughly what teachers get in former-USSR/Warsaw Pact eastern Europe, and in those countries it's a comfortable income. Also, going back to what they did a few years ago isn't "more work". May actually be less, given how often people look at AI output, roll their eyes, and say "ugh, slop". Also also, questions of pay are obviously after society decides what it wants the role of a teacher to be and finds out how much it needs to spend to hire enough people who will do whatever that job turns out to be.
qsera 4mo ago
> figure out how to organise society to deal with it. Yea, need to figure out to form society with participants who are incapable of thinking... And to make matters worse the LLMs that is causing this cannot even really think!

cornholio 4mo ago

The counterargument is that kids will live in a world different from our own. For example, in many countries children lost the ability to write cursive; that used to be a critical skill comparable to literacy itself. But in our current society, that's no longer the case and you can be very successful without it, but there are other skills, such as using technology, that became critical. Any definitive claim to know what are the right things kids should learn in a moment of rapid technological shift is probably garbage and just a projection of our own biases.

lostlogin 4mo ago
I went through a Steiner school from pre-school to end of high school. It’s highly opinionated and very controlling initially. When you paint, you start with one colour. Then another day you get the next (there were only primary colours, because of course). You eat at your desk, then you’re allowed to play. This was dropped after a year or so. You don’t learn to read until you’re 7, etc etc. However, by the end of high school it was up to the individual how much they achieved, and there was minimal pressure. As long as you weren’t messing with other kids, you could do a little or much as you please, and consequences were minimal. Tools and skills were introduced at a developmentally appropriate age - not sure who chose that age though. There was a lot wrong with the school and the system, but there was a lot more that was right in my opinion.
- hgomersall 4mo ago
  Yeah, I we considered a Steiner school because I think that extensive play is a super critical part of a good education. The problem is you also need to be able to be part of the mainstream system at some point, and it felt like it didn't necessarily quite meet that goal.
  - creesch 4mo ago
    Also worth considering is that it is part of a broader ideology of Anthroposophy which sometimes aproaches semi cult status in how people identify with it. A lot of the principles of Steiner schools are actually pretty cool, but sending your kid there, depending on the school they will also be dealing with the more esoteric bits of all of this that have very little to do with didactic or pedagogic sound principles. Some if it includes some schools teaching some of the more racists views of Mr Steiner.