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> Firstly, freedom of speech does not guarantee you freedom from consequences of your speech. It really does, that's the entire point. If you go find somebody

> Firstly, freedom of speech does not guarantee you freedom from consequences of your speech. It really does, that's the entire point. If you go find somebody and physically attack them for what they've written on HN about for example medicine, that makes you the law-breaker. I understand from the way you write that you might consider it your right to do such things to other people who don't have the same opinions as you, but freedom of speech protects them against retribution from you or anybody else, including from the government.

ToucanLoucan 4mo ago
> It really does, that's the entire point. If you go find somebody and physically attack them for what they've written on HN about for example medicine, that makes you the law-breaker. Yeah if I did this thing you completely made up, that would be illegal. Just like if the parent commenter was imprisoned for the post he made, that would also be illegal. Have you considered basing your politics on real things? > I understand from the way you write that you might consider it your right to do such things to other people who don't have the same opinions as you, Oh don't flatter yourselves. I have no interest at all in going to prison for slapping the shit out of COVID deniers. I'll happily tell you you're wrong though. > but freedom of speech protects them against retribution from you or anybody else, including from the government. Correct, but it doesn't protect them from social consequences, in this case getting downvoted, which is what they were pissing and moaning about.
- carlosjobim 4mo ago
  I wouldn't say that a hacker down vote is much of a social consequence, and the other poster wasn't pissing and moaning, he was joking about it. But you were already so full of hate against "the others", that you couldn't see the humour.
amanaplanacanal 4mo ago
Really? Assault is against the law regardless of why you do it. People are totally free to shun you if they don't like what you are saying though, and that seems totally fine to me. If you insult my family members, you won't be welcome on my house. How could it be otherwise?
- carlosjobim 4mo ago
  Shunning is meaningless unless it is backed up by real consequences. By itself it isn't a consequence, at least not in discussions about freedom of speech, where consequences usually are things like being executed, imprisoned, tortured, put in a camp, put to slave labour, fined, publicly humiliated, exiled, banned from working in your sector, fired, banned from employment, and so on. Freedom of speech doesn't mean everybody or even anybody has to like what you say, but you should be protected from repercussions.
  - amanaplanacanal 4mo ago
    Public humiliation is also free speech. Calling out somebody for racism, misogyny, homophobia, etc, is free speech. Being fired is certainly a consequence, but at will employment pretty much means you can be fired for anything.
    - iamnothere 4mo ago
      Public humiliation is free speech, true. Actively attempting to interfere with someone’s business relationships due to their speech is a civil tort, sending threatening messages to someone due to their speech is a crime, swatting is an even bigger crime, stalking is a crime, conspiring with people in a Discord to do most of this stuff is a felony thanks to laws regarding conspiracy. There’s a certain motte-and-bailey that goes on with the “speech has consequences” crowd, where the frontline people just say their people are only engaging in legal counterspeech, while all this horrible stuff goes on behind the scenes. And then they laugh about the horrible stuff when it happens and say things like “FAFO.” I almost never see would-be cancellers (regardless of political affiliation) call out people on their side for encouraging or engaging in blatantly illegal conduct in order to “own” their opponents. Often they hang out in the same group chats!
    - carlosjobim 4mo ago
      > Public humiliation is also free speech. It is not. It is a crime or a punishment. You can't drag somebody to a struggle session because you didn't like what they said. You can't spit on them in the streets, follow them with a chanting mob, tear off their clothes, throw rotten food at them, or any such things which are humiliating somebody in public. "Calling out somebody for racism" or for "being woke" in public debate is not public humiliation in that sense. Go ask teenagers and adolescents in gang-infested territory what public humiliation is if you want to know. They get forced on camera to go down on their knees and kiss the boots of gang members, or do worse things on camera as punishment for something they have said that was "disrespectful". Then those videos are spread as public humiliation all across the networks of these people and youth at large.

ToucanLoucan 4mo ago

> It really does, that's the entire point. If you go find somebody and physically attack them for what they've written on HN about for example medicine, that makes you the law-breaker. Yeah if I did this thing you completely made up, that would be illegal. Just like if the parent commenter was imprisoned for the post he made, that would also be illegal. Have you considered basing your politics on real things? > I understand from the way you write that you might consider it your right to do such things to other people who don't have the same opinions as you, Oh don't flatter yourselves. I have no interest at all in going to prison for slapping the shit out of COVID deniers. I'll happily tell you you're wrong though. > but freedom of speech protects them against retribution from you or anybody else, including from the government. Correct, but it doesn't protect them from social consequences, in this case getting downvoted, which is what they were pissing and moaning about.

carlosjobim 4mo ago
I wouldn't say that a hacker down vote is much of a social consequence, and the other poster wasn't pissing and moaning, he was joking about it. But you were already so full of hate against "the others", that you couldn't see the humour.

amanaplanacanal 4mo ago

Really? Assault is against the law regardless of why you do it. People are totally free to shun you if they don't like what you are saying though, and that seems totally fine to me. If you insult my family members, you won't be welcome on my house. How could it be otherwise?

carlosjobim 4mo ago
Shunning is meaningless unless it is backed up by real consequences. By itself it isn't a consequence, at least not in discussions about freedom of speech, where consequences usually are things like being executed, imprisoned, tortured, put in a camp, put to slave labour, fined, publicly humiliated, exiled, banned from working in your sector, fired, banned from employment, and so on. Freedom of speech doesn't mean everybody or even anybody has to like what you say, but you should be protected from repercussions.
- amanaplanacanal 4mo ago
  Public humiliation is also free speech. Calling out somebody for racism, misogyny, homophobia, etc, is free speech. Being fired is certainly a consequence, but at will employment pretty much means you can be fired for anything.
  - iamnothere 4mo ago
    Public humiliation is free speech, true. Actively attempting to interfere with someone’s business relationships due to their speech is a civil tort, sending threatening messages to someone due to their speech is a crime, swatting is an even bigger crime, stalking is a crime, conspiring with people in a Discord to do most of this stuff is a felony thanks to laws regarding conspiracy. There’s a certain motte-and-bailey that goes on with the “speech has consequences” crowd, where the frontline people just say their people are only engaging in legal counterspeech, while all this horrible stuff goes on behind the scenes. And then they laugh about the horrible stuff when it happens and say things like “FAFO.” I almost never see would-be cancellers (regardless of political affiliation) call out people on their side for encouraging or engaging in blatantly illegal conduct in order to “own” their opponents. Often they hang out in the same group chats!
  - carlosjobim 4mo ago
    > Public humiliation is also free speech. It is not. It is a crime or a punishment. You can't drag somebody to a struggle session because you didn't like what they said. You can't spit on them in the streets, follow them with a chanting mob, tear off their clothes, throw rotten food at them, or any such things which are humiliating somebody in public. "Calling out somebody for racism" or for "being woke" in public debate is not public humiliation in that sense. Go ask teenagers and adolescents in gang-infested territory what public humiliation is if you want to know. They get forced on camera to go down on their knees and kiss the boots of gang members, or do worse things on camera as punishment for something they have said that was "disrespectful". Then those videos are spread as public humiliation all across the networks of these people and youth at large.