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FTA: Norway will start building the first full-size ship tunnel in the world And “Full-size” means what? Sea-faring? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_tunne

by Someone 4mo ago

FTA: Norway will start building the first full-size ship tunnel in the world And “Full-size” means what? Sea-faring? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_tunnel lists several tunnels that ships can pass through, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rove_Tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rove_Tunnel, to me, seems to have supported decently sized ships.

ceejayoz 4mo ago
There's no solid definition of "boat" versus "ship", but those are clearly a different scale.
- notahacker 4mo ago
  Yeah, some of the ones mentioned are about 14' wide...
- emil-lp 4mo ago
  A ship can carry a boat, but a boat cannot carry a ship.
  - ceejayoz 4mo ago
    And some ships can carry a ship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Blue_Marlin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Blue_Marlin
    - roughly 4mo ago
      Ahhh, the ship-shipping ship. There’s some great photos of it shipping ships.
- msandford 4mo ago
  I always thought it had to do with which way the vessel leaned while turning. Boats will lean into the turn, ships out. I guess that really only tells you if that's a displacement hull or planing hull, though.
  - ceejayoz 4mo ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship calls that "a US Navy rule of thumb".
eesmith 4mo ago
There isn't a single, fixed definition of "ship". From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_nautical_terms_(M%E2%80%93Z)#ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_nautical_terms_(M%... , "2, More generally, any medium or larger seagoing vessel. Smaller vessels or those used in sheltered waters are generally called boats. Exceptions include submarines, which are always referred to as boats." (See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship#Nomenclature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship#Nomenclature ). The Rove Tunnel was designed for canal boats and barges, not ships. From a 1928 article: "Barges are built for quiet waters, so their masters have looked with alarm at the prospect of taking them through the Mediterranean waves 25 miles from Marseille to the mouth of the Rhone. The new canal, after permitting barges to pass through the mountain, admits them to the Etang de Berre and thence to a canal which joins the Rhone at the famous old Roman town of Arles, 49 miles to the north" - https://archive.org/details/sim_national-geographic-school-bulletin_geographic-news-bulletin_1928-03-05_7_2/page/5/mode/2up?q=%22Rove+Tunnel%22 https://archive.org/details/sim_national-geographic-school-b... The desire for sheltered waters means these vessels were boats, not ships. Looking through old articles and you'll see descriptions like "The 4½-mile Rove Tunnel floats barges and small boats" (https://archive.org/details/sim_national-geographic-school-bulletin_geographic-news-bulletin_1943-02-22_22_1/mode/2up?q=%22Rove+Tunnel%22 https://archive.org/details/sim_national-geographic-school-b...) and " this tunnel will allow passage of river boats that previously found it practically impossible to negotiate the 30-mile sea trip from the mouth of the Rhone to Marseilles." (https://archive.org/details/sim_scientific-american_1928-01_138_1/page/34/mode/2up?q=%22Rove+Tunnel%22 https://archive.org/details/sim_scientific-american_1928-01_...) but I found no mention of ships using the canal. That said, "If you own a vessel in the UK that you intend to go to sea with" and the boat is "less than 24 metres in length overall" then you can register it in the UK Small Ship's Register (https://ukshipregister.co.uk/registration/small-ships-register-part-3 https://ukshipregister.co.uk/registration/small-ships-regist...), which technically means that something described as a "ship" could have gone through the canal. But that's not really what people generally mean by ship.
kitd 4mo ago
Water depth in the Rove tunnel is 4m, and 12m in the Stad tunnel. They don't say at what state of the tide that is though, which I would have thought affects the size of ship that can pass through significantly (unless it has locks either end I suppose). From Wikipedia: Rove: Length - 7,120 metres (23,360 ft) long Clearance - 15 m (49 ft) Width - 22 m (72 ft) Stad: Length - 1800 metres Clearance - 49 metres Width - 37 metres Boat-passable - 16 metres Depth of tunnel below water level - 12 metres
sandworm101 4mo ago
And do not forget the various military ship tunnels out there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_museum_complex_Balaklava https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_museum_complex_Balaklava https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/21/asia/china-submarine-underground-base-satellite-photo-intl-hnk-scli https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/21/asia/china-submarine-undergro...

by Someone 4mo ago

ceejayoz 4mo ago

There's no solid definition of "boat" versus "ship", but those are clearly a different scale.

notahacker 4mo ago
Yeah, some of the ones mentioned are about 14' wide...
emil-lp 4mo ago
A ship can carry a boat, but a boat cannot carry a ship.
- ceejayoz 4mo ago
  And some ships can carry a ship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Blue_Marlin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Blue_Marlin
  - roughly 4mo ago
    Ahhh, the ship-shipping ship. There’s some great photos of it shipping ships.
msandford 4mo ago
I always thought it had to do with which way the vessel leaned while turning. Boats will lean into the turn, ships out. I guess that really only tells you if that's a displacement hull or planing hull, though.
- ceejayoz 4mo ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship calls that "a US Navy rule of thumb".

eesmith 4mo ago

There isn't a single, fixed definition of "ship". From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_nautical_terms_(M%E2%80%93Z)#ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_nautical_terms_(M%... , "2, More generally, any medium or larger seagoing vessel. Smaller vessels or those used in sheltered waters are generally called boats. Exceptions include submarines, which are always referred to as boats." (See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship#Nomenclature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship#Nomenclature ). The Rove Tunnel was designed for canal boats and barges, not ships. From a 1928 article: "Barges are built for quiet waters, so their masters have looked with alarm at the prospect of taking them through the Mediterranean waves 25 miles from Marseille to the mouth of the Rhone. The new canal, after permitting barges to pass through the mountain, admits them to the Etang de Berre and thence to a canal which joins the Rhone at the famous old Roman town of Arles, 49 miles to the north" - https://archive.org/details/sim_national-geographic-school-bulletin_geographic-news-bulletin_1928-03-05_7_2/page/5/mode/2up?q=%22Rove+Tunnel%22 https://archive.org/details/sim_national-geographic-school-b... The desire for sheltered waters means these vessels were boats, not ships. Looking through old articles and you'll see descriptions like "The 4½-mile Rove Tunnel floats barges and small boats" (https://archive.org/details/sim_national-geographic-school-bulletin_geographic-news-bulletin_1943-02-22_22_1/mode/2up?q=%22Rove+Tunnel%22 https://archive.org/details/sim_national-geographic-school-b...) and " this tunnel will allow passage of river boats that previously found it practically impossible to negotiate the 30-mile sea trip from the mouth of the Rhone to Marseilles." (https://archive.org/details/sim_scientific-american_1928-01_138_1/page/34/mode/2up?q=%22Rove+Tunnel%22 https://archive.org/details/sim_scientific-american_1928-01_...) but I found no mention of ships using the canal. That said, "If you own a vessel in the UK that you intend to go to sea with" and the boat is "less than 24 metres in length overall" then you can register it in the UK Small Ship's Register (https://ukshipregister.co.uk/registration/small-ships-register-part-3 https://ukshipregister.co.uk/registration/small-ships-regist...), which technically means that something described as a "ship" could have gone through the canal. But that's not really what people generally mean by ship.

kitd 4mo ago

Water depth in the Rove tunnel is 4m, and 12m in the Stad tunnel. They don't say at what state of the tide that is though, which I would have thought affects the size of ship that can pass through significantly (unless it has locks either end I suppose). From Wikipedia: Rove: Length - 7,120 metres (23,360 ft) long Clearance - 15 m (49 ft) Width - 22 m (72 ft) Stad: Length - 1800 metres Clearance - 49 metres Width - 37 metres Boat-passable - 16 metres Depth of tunnel below water level - 12 metres

sandworm101 4mo ago

And do not forget the various military ship tunnels out there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_museum_complex_Balaklava https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_museum_complex_Balaklava https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/21/asia/china-submarine-underground-base-satellite-photo-intl-hnk-scli https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/21/asia/china-submarine-undergro...