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I have similar hopes for Solvespace - that every middle school student can pick it up and design things. We have a couple issues that keep me from recommending

I have similar hopes for Solvespace - that every middle school student can pick it up and design things. We have a couple issues that keep me from recommending it too strongly though - bugs in the boolean code are IMHO the biggest blocker for kids. Any chance you could have the kids make comparisons between the two? Solvespace is completely constraint-based, so it may be a bit harder to learn but also more flexible. It's a single exe, but there is also an experimental web version: https://solvespace.com/webver.pl https://solvespace.com/webver.pl

dofm 3mo ago
> that every middle school student can pick it up and design things. The Solvespace UI is a long, long way from being the sort of UI a contemporary kid has any kind of comfort with, I'm afraid, and will be obtuse even to teachers (many of whom, with subjects that concern technology, do not have time to develop expertise in an obtuse UI and may indeed only be confident they understand the meaning of all the lessons they are teaching and not much more). I don't think bugs in your booleans are your biggest problem at all. I think Tinkercad has weaknesses as a classic CAD package, and there are things I would like to see done better, but as a package to teach younger people how core concepts in 3D modelling (rather than the ontologies of bRep) actually work, it is the standard you are working against.
- WillAdams 3mo ago
  A UI which seems a bit more in-line w/ contemporary expectations is Dune 3D: https://dune3d.org/ https://dune3d.org/ which I find a little less confusing than the traditional 3D CAD packages I've tried (and failed to learn) --- at least for Dune 3D I've made it through the tutorial successfully.
  - dofm 3mo ago
    Dune 3D is OK — and is after all dependent on Solvespace.
    - WillAdams 3mo ago
      As noted on the footnote for the project on Github: >I ended up directly using solvespace's solver instead of the suggested wrapper code since it didn't expose all of the features I needed. I also had to patch the solver to make it sufficiently fast for the kinds of equations I was generating by symbolically solving equations where applicable. ↩
- phkahler 3mo ago
  >> The Solvespace UI is a long, long way from being the sort of UI a contemporary kid has any kind of comfort with... Respectfully, I disagree. Even adults have used the word "fun" to describe using solvespace. But I don't actually have feedback from kids, hence the question to OP.
  - dofm 3mo ago
    Don't get me wrong, I think Solvespace is really important and I am glad you are keeping it ticking over, but it is the least fun UI I have ever encountered, I'm afraid (kind of obtuse on a trackpad too) Not saying any of this is easy — Shapr3D on an iPad, expensive and marketed on its extraordinary usability, is just utterly perplexing!
    - phkahler 3mo ago
      >> kind of obtuse on a trackpad too Oh, I actually hate trying to use solvespace with anything other than a 3-button mouse. Unfortunate because the web version can actually run on my phone but is unusable in practice.
      - dofm 3mo ago
        I guess this is, sort of, the filter through which I experience the frustrations; it may be magnifying them even. I've not used a three button mouse in thirty years. Probably only used a mouse for a dozen hours in the last 15 years.
        Silamoth 3mo ago
        Not the person you were responding to, but genuine question: How are you interacting with computers without practically ever using a mouse? And how do you expect to use CAD software without a mouse?
        dofm 3mo ago
        Trackpad? I have used Macbooks with good trackpads since 2003. The models from the 2008 unibody Macbook and onwards are so very obviously superior to mice, that I simply have never wanted to use a mouse since. My preference for mice was two-button Microsoft Mouse models (I had the magnificent early "dove bar" Microsoft mouse, which I regretfully had to replace with a 2.0 at some point). On the Mac, you only had one-button mice anyway. For Linux I did try a nicely made Logitech three-button mouse, but ended up giving it away because some quirk of my neurology or physiology simply will not let me consistently independently address the middle button while holding or moving the mouse. I will almost always end up pressing one or other finger either side as well (sometimes enough to click it). Scroll wheel mice are slightly better because the middle button is physically different (and often slightly raised). I do have one stored away in case I need it. On a trackpad I do have individual fingertip tap control, for some reason. I also use a wacom pen for photo editing, but those are not really much use for CAD. (Honestly, I don't get how people think Shapr3D is usable on the iPad with the Pencil; it is not) For CAD: FreeCAD's "Gesture" control mode is superb! The "touchpad" control mode not bad. I've toyed with the idea of getting a Spacemouse for my left hand (or making one of the DIY ones) but I have never really felt enough need, because the Gesture mode is so fluid and instinctive.

dofm 3mo ago

> that every middle school student can pick it up and design things. The Solvespace UI is a long, long way from being the sort of UI a contemporary kid has any kind of comfort with, I'm afraid, and will be obtuse even to teachers (many of whom, with subjects that concern technology, do not have time to develop expertise in an obtuse UI and may indeed only be confident they understand the meaning of all the lessons they are teaching and not much more). I don't think bugs in your booleans are your biggest problem at all. I think Tinkercad has weaknesses as a classic CAD package, and there are things I would like to see done better, but as a package to teach younger people how core concepts in 3D modelling (rather than the ontologies of bRep) actually work, it is the standard you are working against.

WillAdams 3mo ago
A UI which seems a bit more in-line w/ contemporary expectations is Dune 3D: https://dune3d.org/ https://dune3d.org/ which I find a little less confusing than the traditional 3D CAD packages I've tried (and failed to learn) --- at least for Dune 3D I've made it through the tutorial successfully.
- dofm 3mo ago
  Dune 3D is OK — and is after all dependent on Solvespace.
  - WillAdams 3mo ago
    As noted on the footnote for the project on Github: >I ended up directly using solvespace's solver instead of the suggested wrapper code since it didn't expose all of the features I needed. I also had to patch the solver to make it sufficiently fast for the kinds of equations I was generating by symbolically solving equations where applicable. ↩
phkahler 3mo ago
>> The Solvespace UI is a long, long way from being the sort of UI a contemporary kid has any kind of comfort with... Respectfully, I disagree. Even adults have used the word "fun" to describe using solvespace. But I don't actually have feedback from kids, hence the question to OP.
- dofm 3mo ago
  Don't get me wrong, I think Solvespace is really important and I am glad you are keeping it ticking over, but it is the least fun UI I have ever encountered, I'm afraid (kind of obtuse on a trackpad too) Not saying any of this is easy — Shapr3D on an iPad, expensive and marketed on its extraordinary usability, is just utterly perplexing!
  - phkahler 3mo ago
    >> kind of obtuse on a trackpad too Oh, I actually hate trying to use solvespace with anything other than a 3-button mouse. Unfortunate because the web version can actually run on my phone but is unusable in practice.
    - dofm 3mo ago
      I guess this is, sort of, the filter through which I experience the frustrations; it may be magnifying them even. I've not used a three button mouse in thirty years. Probably only used a mouse for a dozen hours in the last 15 years.
      - Silamoth 3mo ago
        Not the person you were responding to, but genuine question: How are you interacting with computers without practically ever using a mouse? And how do you expect to use CAD software without a mouse?
        dofm 3mo ago
        Trackpad? I have used Macbooks with good trackpads since 2003. The models from the 2008 unibody Macbook and onwards are so very obviously superior to mice, that I simply have never wanted to use a mouse since. My preference for mice was two-button Microsoft Mouse models (I had the magnificent early "dove bar" Microsoft mouse, which I regretfully had to replace with a 2.0 at some point). On the Mac, you only had one-button mice anyway. For Linux I did try a nicely made Logitech three-button mouse, but ended up giving it away because some quirk of my neurology or physiology simply will not let me consistently independently address the middle button while holding or moving the mouse. I will almost always end up pressing one or other finger either side as well (sometimes enough to click it). Scroll wheel mice are slightly better because the middle button is physically different (and often slightly raised). I do have one stored away in case I need it. On a trackpad I do have individual fingertip tap control, for some reason. I also use a wacom pen for photo editing, but those are not really much use for CAD. (Honestly, I don't get how people think Shapr3D is usable on the iPad with the Pencil; it is not) For CAD: FreeCAD's "Gesture" control mode is superb! The "touchpad" control mode not bad. I've toyed with the idea of getting a Spacemouse for my left hand (or making one of the DIY ones) but I have never really felt enough need, because the Gesture mode is so fluid and instinctive.