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Similarly, the Western idea of Stoicism seems to focus mostly on controlling or even suppressing your emotions (at least on surface level), while the Stoicism y
by peepee1982 4mo ago
Similarly, the Western idea of Stoicism seems to focus mostly on controlling or even suppressing your emotions (at least on surface level), while the Stoicism you rightly call "Roman" (thanks for that, btw) is much more holistic and more of an ethical framework.
- jdw64 4mo agoThank you for letting me know correctly.
- oliculipolicula 4mo agoGreek Stoicism (no quotes) is more positive. ὁ ἀγαθὸς ἀνὴρ [ἀδιάπτωτος καὶ] ἀδιάσειστος The good man (agathos aner, man who acts for the benefit of others) is [infallible and] unshakeable. --Epictetus, whose name sounds "Roman", just like "Stoa" doesn't This can be (plausibly) used to describe Sam Altman, for example
- slater 4mo agoSam Altman is a good man...?
- oliculipolicula 4mo agoDoes he not act for the benefit of shareholders (in the best possible future, at least) Rate-limited edit: my (evasive?) answer was that Stoics were careful enough not to use the word "good", but the more subtle, one might accuse utilitarian, "agathos" in that scenario Should I interest you in the needle's eye left for cybernetic* shareholders? *Neither fully machine, nor fully human, nor even monolithic, but definitely no camel, bc camel, unlike horse, can survive anywhere and were once native to the USA (arguably)
- slater 4mo agoI don't know, I asked if he's a good man
- johndhi 4mo agoWho doesn't call stoicism Roman?
- BigGreenJorts 4mo agoMost pop stoics focus on the Greeks :P
- lelanthran 4mo ago> Who doesn't call stoicism Roman? The Greeks?
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- josephg 4mo agoThe idea that "being stoic" means to be emotionless isn't a roman idea. Its a modern one.
- Stefan-H 4mo agoYou might need to inspect the etymology of that word and take a look at where the concept is rooted.
- josephg 4mo agoI assume you’re snipping about stoicism being Greek not Roman? I’d appreciate if you just say what you mean. I’m not your student. I’m not accepting homework assignments from a random internet commenter.
- Stefan-H 4mo agoNo, my apologies, I actually mis-attributed the etymology of stoic to a group that did identify with reduced emotionality, but yes, out of Greece. That’s not how the snipe was intended.
- smath 4mo ago
- moojacob 4mo agoStoicism in Ancient Rome was COMPLETELY about controlling your emotions, though. And in Greece it was never that big of a deal. The stoics we remember today are all Roman. Marcus Aurelius, Epicurious, Seneca. Meditations is largely Marcus Aurelius soothing himself with logical arguments. Im not doing it full justice but the passages read like “A whole is not less than its parts, Humans are intelligent, therefore the universe is intelligent, there for my situation is a logical plan from the universe, so I should be content.” Marcus was explaining why he needed to be the perfect elite Roman citizen, using nature to logically show why he needed to embody societally cherished traits like being logical, just, fair, but also being stern, powerful and strong. Over and over again. Now at the time, they did consider it a hard science. They were trying to figure out secrets of the universe, the absolute correct ethics, and therapy (controlling your emotions) at the same time. Each tenet relied on eachother, you couldn’t have one with the other. Today we know the science was wrong and ethics are more complicated than they could’ve imagined, but the controlling emotions side remains. So I completely disagree that modern stoic bros are bastardizing it, it just is an flawed ideology that matches well with some of our modern western traits of a “masculine” man.
- zoogeny 4mo ago> Stoicism in Ancient Rome was COMPLETELY about controlling your emotions, This is so false it deserves comment. For example, the SEP for Stoicism [1]. You'll notice that the first entire two sections are Physical Theory and Logic. Ethics comes later and it isn't until 4.3 (after Telos and Virtue) that you get to indifference. From the intro: "Stoic philosophy was, from Zeno onwards, conceived of as comprising three parts: physics (phusikê), logic (logikê), and ethics (êthikê)." I think you are over-indexing on one work by one Stoic. There is much, much more to actual Stoicism than "controlling your emotions". 1. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/stoicism/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/stoicism/
- moojacob 4mo agoI only read Meditations. So yes, if he is not representative of the philosophy I have bastardized it. Although, I am convinced Marcus Aurelius used Stoicism as a tool to control his emotions. Meditations reminded me of cognitive behavioral therapy. Repetitive soothing phrases to induce equanimity.