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I guess we, in our youthful arrogance, dismiss our seniors as enterprise relics of a lost age, without considering what led them to that place before. Things do

I guess we, in our youthful arrogance, dismiss our seniors as enterprise relics of a lost age, without considering what led them to that place before. Things don't seem to change that much, after all. Sadly. Which is coincidentally the theme of this article.

pjscott 14y ago
I guess we, in our youthful arrogance, dismiss our seniors as enterprise relics of a lost age, without considering what led them to that place before. This is a maddeningly vague statement. It sounds like something I'm supposed to agree with, but without at least one concrete example, it could be total bullshit and still sound wise.
michaelochurch 14y ago
The tie is a sword. Now, you don't wear a sword to threaten violence. It's a social status symbol because only free people were allowed to have swords, much less wear them prominently, in the time that such was fashionable. Decorative rapiers were pitiful in comparison to battle weapons, but they made a point: high social class or (alternatively) the freedom (from typical aristocratic structures) of mercenary soldiers. In fact, the reason ties are called cravats is because they evolved from the cloth "knives" worn about the neck by Croatian mercenaries. The suit is, as one might imagine, armor. I don't see these as bad things. Unlike real swords, ties aren't hurting anyone. But yes, they go a long way back. There's a lot of legacy, for sure.
zerostar07 14y ago
What's sad is the conformist turn this thread has taken. What happened to the rebelious spirit of the internet generation? People shouldn't make judgments based on somebody's clothing. We are supposed to be beyond the point where one needs to be "pleasurable to everyone" in order to be respected. Also, if anything, shirt-and-tie clothing is quite impractical, how about putting some brains to work to come up with self-cleaning/self-healing clothes? Another thing: by creating a strong impression of seriousness, jacket-and-tie creates a false , narcissistic sense of self-worth that can limit the true drive to succeed and that's a sad, sad thing when it happens. It's just an appearance after all. Taleb may have been referring to certain "conference-whores" [1] who dress up like geeks to fit into the crowd. Hopefully, in science and technology, actions matter more than words and dress up, and that's one of the reasons we like it. [1]http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/10/13/be-careful-not-to-become-a-conference-ho/ http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/10/13/be-careful-not...
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  So, I like wearing the suit and tie and you probably think I'm "conformist". I also tend not to judge people based on how they dress or look. I make active efforts to be as non-biased by peoples' physical appearances as possible. Yet I know (from experience) that it's an unreasonable expectation of other people to hold them to this same status and that, in the real world, appearance matters. What I've learned, the hard way, is that you have to spend a considerable amount of your work time deciding for other people how they perceive you, and this is a subtle art. If you don't manage your image actively, others will manage it for you. This is as true, if not moreso, in a startup than in a big company. At least the social status rules of large companies (as broken and antiquated as they may be) are documented. In a startup, you often have situations where there are 20 employees who all think they're the alpha dog. Wearing a suit and tie is a very cheap, efficient way to manage other peoples' impressions of you. Sure, it's silly, but the reward-to-cost ratio is very high. It's a lot cheaper and better than, say, sticking around the office till 9:30 when you finished productive work 5 hours ago.
  - zerostar07 14y ago
    I didn't make a personal remark, but yes, what you describe perpetuates a certain conformity.
- dpritchett 14y ago
  Suits are one of the many well-known ways to get (certain) people to like you and respect you. If you've ever failed to reach your goals due to other people's suboptimal reception of your presentation, consider this: "Your business suit will probably cost about as much as a computer monitor. You only need it once in a blue moon, but when you need it you’ll be really, really, really glad that you have it. Take my word for it, if I wear everyday casual when I visit e.g. City Hall I get treated like a hapless awkward twenty-something, if I wear the suit I get treated like the CEO of a multinational company. I’m actually the awkward twenty-something CEO of a multinational company, but I get to pick which side to emphasize when I want favorable treatment from a bureaucrat." [1] Now, obligatory suit-and-tie-wearing can certainly be seen as a form of workplace oppression, but the motivation to positively impress business associates is perfectly valid. On the flip side, dressing down and cursing like a sailor can also be a form of calculated personal branding that conveys the desired impression (confident, powerful outsider) to certain prospective clients in certain situations. [2] [1] http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/ [2] http://500hats.com http://500hats.com

pjscott 14y ago

I guess we, in our youthful arrogance, dismiss our seniors as enterprise relics of a lost age, without considering what led them to that place before. This is a maddeningly vague statement. It sounds like something I'm supposed to agree with, but without at least one concrete example, it could be total bullshit and still sound wise.

michaelochurch 14y ago

The tie is a sword. Now, you don't wear a sword to threaten violence. It's a social status symbol because only free people were allowed to have swords, much less wear them prominently, in the time that such was fashionable. Decorative rapiers were pitiful in comparison to battle weapons, but they made a point: high social class or (alternatively) the freedom (from typical aristocratic structures) of mercenary soldiers. In fact, the reason ties are called cravats is because they evolved from the cloth "knives" worn about the neck by Croatian mercenaries. The suit is, as one might imagine, armor. I don't see these as bad things. Unlike real swords, ties aren't hurting anyone. But yes, they go a long way back. There's a lot of legacy, for sure.

zerostar07 14y ago

What's sad is the conformist turn this thread has taken. What happened to the rebelious spirit of the internet generation? People shouldn't make judgments based on somebody's clothing. We are supposed to be beyond the point where one needs to be "pleasurable to everyone" in order to be respected. Also, if anything, shirt-and-tie clothing is quite impractical, how about putting some brains to work to come up with self-cleaning/self-healing clothes? Another thing: by creating a strong impression of seriousness, jacket-and-tie creates a false , narcissistic sense of self-worth that can limit the true drive to succeed and that's a sad, sad thing when it happens. It's just an appearance after all. Taleb may have been referring to certain "conference-whores" [1] who dress up like geeks to fit into the crowd. Hopefully, in science and technology, actions matter more than words and dress up, and that's one of the reasons we like it. [1]http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/10/13/be-careful-not-to-become-a-conference-ho/ http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/10/13/be-careful-not...

michaelochurch 14y ago
So, I like wearing the suit and tie and you probably think I'm "conformist". I also tend not to judge people based on how they dress or look. I make active efforts to be as non-biased by peoples' physical appearances as possible. Yet I know (from experience) that it's an unreasonable expectation of other people to hold them to this same status and that, in the real world, appearance matters. What I've learned, the hard way, is that you have to spend a considerable amount of your work time deciding for other people how they perceive you, and this is a subtle art. If you don't manage your image actively, others will manage it for you. This is as true, if not moreso, in a startup than in a big company. At least the social status rules of large companies (as broken and antiquated as they may be) are documented. In a startup, you often have situations where there are 20 employees who all think they're the alpha dog. Wearing a suit and tie is a very cheap, efficient way to manage other peoples' impressions of you. Sure, it's silly, but the reward-to-cost ratio is very high. It's a lot cheaper and better than, say, sticking around the office till 9:30 when you finished productive work 5 hours ago.
- zerostar07 14y ago
  I didn't make a personal remark, but yes, what you describe perpetuates a certain conformity.
dpritchett 14y ago
Suits are one of the many well-known ways to get (certain) people to like you and respect you. If you've ever failed to reach your goals due to other people's suboptimal reception of your presentation, consider this: "Your business suit will probably cost about as much as a computer monitor. You only need it once in a blue moon, but when you need it you’ll be really, really, really glad that you have it. Take my word for it, if I wear everyday casual when I visit e.g. City Hall I get treated like a hapless awkward twenty-something, if I wear the suit I get treated like the CEO of a multinational company. I’m actually the awkward twenty-something CEO of a multinational company, but I get to pick which side to emphasize when I want favorable treatment from a bureaucrat." [1] Now, obligatory suit-and-tie-wearing can certainly be seen as a form of workplace oppression, but the motivation to positively impress business associates is perfectly valid. On the flip side, dressing down and cursing like a sailor can also be a form of calculated personal branding that conveys the desired impression (confident, powerful outsider) to certain prospective clients in certain situations. [2] [1] http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/ [2] http://500hats.com http://500hats.com