6 ms·

For those of you planning to go to Japan, please make sure you actually calculate how much JR train trips would cost you. They upped the price a few years ago a

by Pooge 4mo ago

For those of you planning to go to Japan, please make sure you actually calculate how much JR train trips would cost you. They upped the price a few years ago and, since then, it's basically impossible for the JR Pass to be more affordable than single tickets. For one of my recent trips, I was actually more better served with a local pass (Kansai Wide Pass) than the JR Pass. Too bad because it used to be a really good deal...

euroderf 4mo ago
> Too bad because it used to be a really good deal... Considering the environmental woes & collapses coming down the pike, I'd like to see a trans-border effort to drive down the price of mass transit _everywhere_. Put it on the G7 agenda, the OECD agenda, the UN General Assembly agenda, ...
- Pooge 4mo ago
  Trains can use renewable energy.
  - Pooge 4mo ago
    I just realized I interpreted your comment the opposite way you intended... Apologies
- lukan 4mo ago
  This is exactly the reason why in germany we have now a broad ticket for short distance trains. Government realized they fail to meet EU regulations in reducing CO2, so they rushed to implement a cheap german wide ticket. Initially just 10€, now 60€ a month. Still a bargain, you can go anywhere as mich forth and back as you want (just not the dedicated long distance trains, so going through all of germany takes a bit longer).
  - jojomodding 4mo ago
    You can tell this is a true success in Germany because 95% of local passengers now use it. It also caused a significant increase in ridership, putting the already overloaded rail system under a lot more pressure while taking away income from the rail companies (after making it cheaper).
    - lukan 4mo ago
      Well yes, the idea is to have more people use the trains, so yes also more trains are needed(and more investment and replacement of the Bahn management) in general, but as far as I know there is no income taken away, as it is subsidized and compensated on the federal level.
      - martinald 4mo ago
        Problem with this approach though is it makes the system very vulnerable to political changes. How much of a problem this is in Germany I'm not sure.
        lukan 4mo ago
        That is a problem as since the introduction of the ticket there are constant talk from the car lobby politicians to remove it again. So bad for planning for the smaller rail companies. But the biggest problem for the german trains remains the management of DB (Deutsche Bahn). Who are in charge of the network. Who paid themself heavy bonuses all the time, while failing on all the metrics that mattered (they succeeded on making a new useless info page go live, that was the official justification for the bonus). And they could do this, because the job of the ministry of transport was to make it easy for the car industry. And the german train is in theory privatized, in reality not so much. The current ministry might be better though, so maybe something is happening. But I believe it, when I see it.
      - bionade24 4mo ago
        > no income taken away, as it is subsidized and compensated on the federal level Only 50% of the relative loss of transit agencies is subsidised by the federal government, the other 50% gets subsidised by the respective state. And since the compensation is calculated in relation to the prices of monthly subscription tickets on routes in the respective transit area, transit agencies are left with even less. Additionally, a lawsuit determined that the train network price cap for public transport is illegal, further increasing costs for the states. This already has caused service reductions in multiple states, e.g. just now in Berlin additional overground Metro services during commuter peaks got halfed. With the results of the lawsuit and now interest from the federal goverment to put more funding into public transport, a lot more services will get axed in the next 3 years.
  - netsharc 4mo ago
    > Government realized they fail to meet EU regulations in reducing CO2, so they rushed to implement a cheap german wide ticket. Or... Russia's attack of Ukraine caused a spike of energy prices. Now which one of us has the correct history, and which is wrong, and why? Is it revisionism?
    - ffsm8 4mo ago
      Neither/both? It was introduced for 9€ because of the invasion, and then continued for 49€ - partially - because of the CO2 contributions
- iso1631 4mo ago
  Making it cheaper for people to fly across an ocean to travel around on mass transit is the last place the price needs to go down.
- decimalenough 4mo ago
  The JR Pass has never been (and still is not) aimed at locals, who are not even allowed to buy it. It's for tourists only.
  - Pooge 4mo ago
    Yes, I was talking about tourists. Regional passes are available for locals as well but are more expensive.
- warumdarum 4mo ago
  So when we get riots due to mass unemployment and societal destabilization can iredirect them to you. Im so tired of call for actions without even an attempt to discuss the fallout.
- mytailorisrich 4mo ago
  Where is there an affordability issue? (Especially in OECD and G7 countries)
- dredmorbius 4mo ago
  The Netherlands have implemented unlimited off-peak rail travel for €49/month: <https://www.ns.nl/en/season-tickets/dal-vrij https://www.ns.nl/en/season-tickets/dal-vrij> HN discussion 4 days ago: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48543872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48543872> Given that many commuter-rail (and frankly, other) transport systems operate well below capacity during off-peak times and in counterflow directions, such pricing could well increase ridership and revenue.
  - bionade24 4mo ago
    This only is an attractive offer if you don't commute by rail & the country/ticket area is small enough to make avoidance of the peak hours feasible.
    - dredmorbius 4mo ago
      I hope it's obvious that the whole idea of an off peak ticketing option is to encourage non-commute transit usage. That is when excess capacity exists. Commuters would pay normal (non-discounted) commute-time rates, though often other incentive programmes exist, varying by locale. From HN discussion and information elsewhere (including the NL rail site itself), so long as a trip begins off-peak, the off-peak rates apply: Please note: the time you check in determines whether you will travel with a discount. <https://www.ns.nl/en/season-tickets/dal-vrij https://www.ns.nl/en/season-tickets/dal-vrij> (see FAQs section) Other systems may of course vary, but typically trip start / time of ticket purchase / time of ticket check determines the applicable rate.
tumdum_ 4mo ago
No only that, but to ride the fastest Shinkansen you still need to pay additional fee on top of JR Pass.
- decimalenough 4mo ago
  Pedantic note: the fastest Shinkansen is the 320 km/h Hayabusa service from Tokyo to Hokkaido, which you can ride for free with a JR Pass. The fastest service on the Tokyo-Osaka corridor, Nozomi, maxes out at 300 km/h but is indeed not included in the pass.
- manbash 4mo ago
  If you're referring to the Nozomi, wasn't it always excluded from the JR Pass?
throwaway2037 4mo ago
I have a hot take on the price of JR Passes. For those unaware, they are exclusively for foreign visitors. In the "old days", travel to and in Japan was considered very expensive, so JR Pass was envisioned as a way to encourage more travel on trains and in Japan. Now the script has flipped. Japan is no longer expensive for people travelling from other highly developed nations. Quite the opposite: It is now cheap. The era of cheap JR Passes is dead. The primary purpose now is convenience. With the exception of Nozomi super-express Shinkansen between Tokyo and (Shin-)Osaka, every JR train is included in a single ticket.
starik36 4mo ago
But the regional passes are still a good deal. If you are in Osaka or Kyoto, and want to take a day trip to Hiroshima, it more than covers the cost, in addition to granting access to various museums plus other benefits.
- Pooge 4mo ago
  The Kansai Wide area pass that I'm talking about doesn't include access to museums. But some of the smaller passes (like the one of Osaka that you mentioned) do. Those passes don't include Shinkansen, though.
  - starik36 4mo ago
    No, I am talking about the JR West Rail Pass. Gives you access to local trains, shinkansen, museums and a host of other things.
    - Pooge 4mo ago
      From what I see[1], that is an umbrella term that encompasses a few passes, including the Wide Pass. Maybe some do include attractions; I didn't know that! I also looked up Tohoku JR passes for an upcoming trip and it wasn't affordable at all. I'm better served using single tickets even when riding the Shinkansen. [1]: https://www.westjr.co.jp/travel-information/en/tickets-passes/jrwest-rail-pass/ https://www.westjr.co.jp/travel-information/en/tickets-passe...
nixass 4mo ago
> it's basically impossible for the JR Pass to be more affordable than single tickets Not true. It really depends on your use case and blanket statements like this aren't helpful. Yes, the pass has doubled in price since few years ago but it still does make sense in many cases, especially in multi-week multi-city Japan trips
- Pooge 4mo ago
  From what I calculated, you need to use the Shinkansen every day and for long distances which is not how many tourists spend time in Japan IME. This is not a blanket statement as my first sentence is recommending people to make calculations based on their planned trip.
  - nixass 4mo ago
    What is long distance in Japan? A day trip from Kyoto to Hiroshima and back? Fukuoka to Kumamoto and back? Tokyo to Nagano and back? Osaka to Kanazawa and back? Tokyo to Nara and back These are all "long" but really not that time-long distances. Shinkansen and regional trains work pretty well for these. And yes, a lot of tourists move between the cities quite often, even some metros accept the JR pass. I was there twice in last 3 years and for our calculation it took 5-6 return shinkansen trips to justify new jr pass price (2 weeks jr pass). And let me tell you shinkansen are experience on their own so there was no lack of will to find daytrips using them
    - Pooge 4mo ago
      Most people I know do not travel Tokyo - Nara and back. They enjoy taking more time in a place while keeping the door open to day trips of course. If you spend more than 1 night in each place and want to do small distances (think Fukuoka to Hiroshima) it really is impossible for it to become a bargain. Again that's my POV, but since the price hike I've never met someone who got a good deal with the JR Pass.

by Pooge 4mo ago

euroderf 4mo ago

> Too bad because it used to be a really good deal... Considering the environmental woes & collapses coming down the pike, I'd like to see a trans-border effort to drive down the price of mass transit _everywhere_. Put it on the G7 agenda, the OECD agenda, the UN General Assembly agenda, ...

Pooge 4mo ago
Trains can use renewable energy.
- Pooge 4mo ago
  I just realized I interpreted your comment the opposite way you intended... Apologies
lukan 4mo ago
This is exactly the reason why in germany we have now a broad ticket for short distance trains. Government realized they fail to meet EU regulations in reducing CO2, so they rushed to implement a cheap german wide ticket. Initially just 10€, now 60€ a month. Still a bargain, you can go anywhere as mich forth and back as you want (just not the dedicated long distance trains, so going through all of germany takes a bit longer).
- jojomodding 4mo ago
  You can tell this is a true success in Germany because 95% of local passengers now use it. It also caused a significant increase in ridership, putting the already overloaded rail system under a lot more pressure while taking away income from the rail companies (after making it cheaper).
  - lukan 4mo ago
    Well yes, the idea is to have more people use the trains, so yes also more trains are needed(and more investment and replacement of the Bahn management) in general, but as far as I know there is no income taken away, as it is subsidized and compensated on the federal level.
    - martinald 4mo ago
      Problem with this approach though is it makes the system very vulnerable to political changes. How much of a problem this is in Germany I'm not sure.
      - lukan 4mo ago
        That is a problem as since the introduction of the ticket there are constant talk from the car lobby politicians to remove it again. So bad for planning for the smaller rail companies. But the biggest problem for the german trains remains the management of DB (Deutsche Bahn). Who are in charge of the network. Who paid themself heavy bonuses all the time, while failing on all the metrics that mattered (they succeeded on making a new useless info page go live, that was the official justification for the bonus). And they could do this, because the job of the ministry of transport was to make it easy for the car industry. And the german train is in theory privatized, in reality not so much. The current ministry might be better though, so maybe something is happening. But I believe it, when I see it.
    - bionade24 4mo ago
      > no income taken away, as it is subsidized and compensated on the federal level Only 50% of the relative loss of transit agencies is subsidised by the federal government, the other 50% gets subsidised by the respective state. And since the compensation is calculated in relation to the prices of monthly subscription tickets on routes in the respective transit area, transit agencies are left with even less. Additionally, a lawsuit determined that the train network price cap for public transport is illegal, further increasing costs for the states. This already has caused service reductions in multiple states, e.g. just now in Berlin additional overground Metro services during commuter peaks got halfed. With the results of the lawsuit and now interest from the federal goverment to put more funding into public transport, a lot more services will get axed in the next 3 years.
- netsharc 4mo ago
  > Government realized they fail to meet EU regulations in reducing CO2, so they rushed to implement a cheap german wide ticket. Or... Russia's attack of Ukraine caused a spike of energy prices. Now which one of us has the correct history, and which is wrong, and why? Is it revisionism?
  - ffsm8 4mo ago
    Neither/both? It was introduced for 9€ because of the invasion, and then continued for 49€ - partially - because of the CO2 contributions
iso1631 4mo ago
Making it cheaper for people to fly across an ocean to travel around on mass transit is the last place the price needs to go down.
decimalenough 4mo ago
The JR Pass has never been (and still is not) aimed at locals, who are not even allowed to buy it. It's for tourists only.
- Pooge 4mo ago
  Yes, I was talking about tourists. Regional passes are available for locals as well but are more expensive.
warumdarum 4mo ago
So when we get riots due to mass unemployment and societal destabilization can iredirect them to you. Im so tired of call for actions without even an attempt to discuss the fallout.
mytailorisrich 4mo ago
Where is there an affordability issue? (Especially in OECD and G7 countries)
dredmorbius 4mo ago
The Netherlands have implemented unlimited off-peak rail travel for €49/month: <https://www.ns.nl/en/season-tickets/dal-vrij https://www.ns.nl/en/season-tickets/dal-vrij> HN discussion 4 days ago: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48543872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48543872> Given that many commuter-rail (and frankly, other) transport systems operate well below capacity during off-peak times and in counterflow directions, such pricing could well increase ridership and revenue.
- bionade24 4mo ago
  This only is an attractive offer if you don't commute by rail & the country/ticket area is small enough to make avoidance of the peak hours feasible.
  - dredmorbius 4mo ago
    I hope it's obvious that the whole idea of an off peak ticketing option is to encourage non-commute transit usage. That is when excess capacity exists. Commuters would pay normal (non-discounted) commute-time rates, though often other incentive programmes exist, varying by locale. From HN discussion and information elsewhere (including the NL rail site itself), so long as a trip begins off-peak, the off-peak rates apply: Please note: the time you check in determines whether you will travel with a discount. <https://www.ns.nl/en/season-tickets/dal-vrij https://www.ns.nl/en/season-tickets/dal-vrij> (see FAQs section) Other systems may of course vary, but typically trip start / time of ticket purchase / time of ticket check determines the applicable rate.

tumdum_ 4mo ago

No only that, but to ride the fastest Shinkansen you still need to pay additional fee on top of JR Pass.

decimalenough 4mo ago
Pedantic note: the fastest Shinkansen is the 320 km/h Hayabusa service from Tokyo to Hokkaido, which you can ride for free with a JR Pass. The fastest service on the Tokyo-Osaka corridor, Nozomi, maxes out at 300 km/h but is indeed not included in the pass.
manbash 4mo ago
If you're referring to the Nozomi, wasn't it always excluded from the JR Pass?

throwaway2037 4mo ago

I have a hot take on the price of JR Passes. For those unaware, they are exclusively for foreign visitors. In the "old days", travel to and in Japan was considered very expensive, so JR Pass was envisioned as a way to encourage more travel on trains and in Japan. Now the script has flipped. Japan is no longer expensive for people travelling from other highly developed nations. Quite the opposite: It is now cheap. The era of cheap JR Passes is dead. The primary purpose now is convenience. With the exception of Nozomi super-express Shinkansen between Tokyo and (Shin-)Osaka, every JR train is included in a single ticket.

starik36 4mo ago

But the regional passes are still a good deal. If you are in Osaka or Kyoto, and want to take a day trip to Hiroshima, it more than covers the cost, in addition to granting access to various museums plus other benefits.

Pooge 4mo ago
The Kansai Wide area pass that I'm talking about doesn't include access to museums. But some of the smaller passes (like the one of Osaka that you mentioned) do. Those passes don't include Shinkansen, though.
- starik36 4mo ago
  No, I am talking about the JR West Rail Pass. Gives you access to local trains, shinkansen, museums and a host of other things.
  - Pooge 4mo ago
    From what I see[1], that is an umbrella term that encompasses a few passes, including the Wide Pass. Maybe some do include attractions; I didn't know that! I also looked up Tohoku JR passes for an upcoming trip and it wasn't affordable at all. I'm better served using single tickets even when riding the Shinkansen. [1]: https://www.westjr.co.jp/travel-information/en/tickets-passes/jrwest-rail-pass/ https://www.westjr.co.jp/travel-information/en/tickets-passe...

nixass 4mo ago

> it's basically impossible for the JR Pass to be more affordable than single tickets Not true. It really depends on your use case and blanket statements like this aren't helpful. Yes, the pass has doubled in price since few years ago but it still does make sense in many cases, especially in multi-week multi-city Japan trips

Pooge 4mo ago
From what I calculated, you need to use the Shinkansen every day and for long distances which is not how many tourists spend time in Japan IME. This is not a blanket statement as my first sentence is recommending people to make calculations based on their planned trip.
- nixass 4mo ago
  What is long distance in Japan? A day trip from Kyoto to Hiroshima and back? Fukuoka to Kumamoto and back? Tokyo to Nagano and back? Osaka to Kanazawa and back? Tokyo to Nara and back These are all "long" but really not that time-long distances. Shinkansen and regional trains work pretty well for these. And yes, a lot of tourists move between the cities quite often, even some metros accept the JR pass. I was there twice in last 3 years and for our calculation it took 5-6 return shinkansen trips to justify new jr pass price (2 weeks jr pass). And let me tell you shinkansen are experience on their own so there was no lack of will to find daytrips using them
  - Pooge 4mo ago
    Most people I know do not travel Tokyo - Nara and back. They enjoy taking more time in a place while keeping the door open to day trips of course. If you spend more than 1 night in each place and want to do small distances (think Fukuoka to Hiroshima) it really is impossible for it to become a bargain. Again that's my POV, but since the price hike I've never met someone who got a good deal with the JR Pass.