4 ms·

Lift Challenge

42 points by mhb 4mo ago

jauntywundrkind 4mo ago
This is being announced to us or everyone right now? It's only around 10 weeks away: that seems surprisingly close. Have some folk already been made aware & have they had time to build for this DARPA Challenges? Generally I think of them as longer running challenges.
- ThunderBee 4mo ago
  this competition was announced October last year. IIRC registration ended sometime Q1 this year.
- fc417fc802 4mo ago
  > Generally I think of them as longer running challenges. Given how outlandish the ratio requirement is compared to currently available products I expect this one will be recurring for at least a few years similar to what happened with the self driving challenge 20ish years ago.
- mhb 4mo ago
  I'm looking forward to the DARPA Challenge to create a service where you can sign up to be emailed about new challenges. This one started October, 2025. More details at https://www.darpa.mil/research/challenges/lift/competitors https://www.darpa.mil/research/challenges/lift/competitors "Phase 1 | Launch October 2025 Special Notice publishing (Oct. 23): DARPA publishes a Special Notice to broadly announce the Lift Challenge and solicit innovative design concepts. Website launches (Oct. 23): DARPA publishes a Special Notice to broadly announce the Lift Challenge and solicit innovative design concepts. Rules and prize announcement (Oct. 23): Detailed draft rules and prize structure are announced, specifying objective and subjective judging criteria."
Schlagbohrer 4mo ago
Darpa.mil got slashdotted? Wow. The folks who invented the internet...
emsign 4mo ago
The military is waking up to the need to adapt frontline logistics. With killrates of 90% for traditional trucks in the Ukraine war, without resupply missions by UAVs/UGVs holding positions is impossible now.
- fc417fc802 4mo ago
  If the truck killrate is 90% what is it for troop transports? How do infantry get in and out of position?
  - sneezychl 4mo ago
    > How do infantry get in and out of position? They don't. Life expectancy of a Russian on the front line is hours. You just send in another wave.
    - fc417fc802 4mo ago
      If that were the case then there wouldn't be anyone there to receive the resupply to begin with.
      - lukan 4mo ago
        Also .. if that were the case russia would not find volunteers anymore, as the large majority of russian soldiers in Ukraine are there by free will, not because they were force drafted. Edit, I forgot, most are not aware of that: https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-conscripts-war-combat/33415104.html https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-conscripts-war-combat...
  - lukan 4mo ago
    Armored carriers if avaiable.
  - torginus 4mo ago
    Quads and dirt bikes afaik.
  - 4mo ago
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
brador 4mo ago
Really just a battery challenge. Possibly against laws of physics at energy density of 4x?
- eichin 4mo ago
  I saw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tohImHa4f5U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tohImHa4f5U (Hoarder Sam, "I'm building a drone for the DARPA lift challenge") the other day and it was a pretty good discussion of the "shape of the envelope" of the problem (and what kind of lift ratios actually exist in modern air vehicles), and particularly how they've set up the constraints to eliminate a bunch of "easy" approaches. It also reminded me that for the first round of the self-driving grand challenge, none of the vehicles even completed the course :-) They really are trying to encourage "out of the box", or at least "not in the obvious box", designs...
- echoangle 4mo ago
  It doesn’t prescribe batteries as far as I can see. You can also build a gasoline powered vehicle which would get you roughly 6 times the energy density.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
bob1029 4mo ago
> Competitors must create an aircraft that is both lightweight and powerful – lifting at least 4x its weight while flying a 5-nautical-mile circuit course. I'd make it 50NM. 5 is way too easy to bullshit with edge case engineering. Alternatively, set a minimum payload capacity of something like 100kg.
- TeMPOraL 4mo ago
  Maybe "edge case engineering" is precisely what they're looking for? Get people to think about beating the rules with cheesy strategies, in hopes some of those could, with some cleverness, scale up and evolve into proper, broad-range solution - or at least become a key previously-missing component of one. But even if it can't, very narrow capabilities can still be useful too; military isn't beyond doing silly things if they offer enough tactical advantage (enough to offset extra burden on logistics, at least).
- xnx 4mo ago
  Giant hot air balloon for lift + 4 rotors for steering? It wouldn't be fast, but it might work [in low wind conditions].
  - mhb 4mo ago
    Rules exclude that approach.
  - echoangle 4mo ago
    https://www.darpa.mil/research/challenges/lift/rules https://www.darpa.mil/research/challenges/lift/rules Forbidden in 3.7
- echoangle 4mo ago
  How would you build a bullshit solution to move 2.5 pound around a 5 mile course (maneuvering) with a vehicle weight below 0.63 pound? I think if you solve that it’s not a bullshit solution but actually useful.
- Legend2440 4mo ago
  From the rules: >110 pounds is the minimum payload weight to receive a qualifying score.
childintime 4mo ago
CATL is working on 12000 Wh/kg air batteries, they will solve this problem, give them the prize.
uberex 4mo ago
Hydrogen-filled balloon wins
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- le-mark 4mo ago
  Not allowed by the rules.
- sysreq_ 4mo ago
  The container required to hold 100 m^3 of compressed gas easily breaks your weight limit. Viable but not viable given the rules.
dang 4mo ago
[stub for offtopicness] [title fixed now]
- konchunas 4mo ago
  It's Heavy Lift, not life
  - kreelman 4mo ago
    When life gets tough... Contact DARPA for a lift !
  - A_D_E_P_T 4mo ago
    Heavy life challenge: Biology usually discriminates against heavy isotopes. Can we reverse, redirect, or exploit that tendency? Find a way to get plants and bacteria to preferentially incorporate heavy atomic isotopes. Use microbes, algae, duckweed, or plant-cell cultures to produce deuterated and 13C/15N-labeled complex biomolecules that are expensive or impractical to synthesize chemically. Could be fun, honestly.
    - azalemeth 4mo ago
      I know you're joking, but changes in isotopes mildly affect reduced mass and hence enzyme kinetics. Maize and other C4 plants already preferentially enrich themselves with 13C [0-3] which occasionally buggers up metabolomic experiments. Famously, a few drugs use 2H rather than natural abundance H typically in order to exploit a kinetic isotopic effect and get a better Km in their binding pocket [4]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractionation_of_carbon_isotopes_in_oxygenic_photosynthesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractionation_of_carbon_isotop... [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7577891/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7577891/ [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1734681/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1734681/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C4_plants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C4_plants [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterated_drug#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterated_drug#Examples
      - 4mo ago
sysreq_ 4mo ago
Been working this for a few months now. It’s not a crazy hard problem - but it does break the mold of distance and speed taking priority over capacity. If you have any questions feel free to ask. I can get into the pros/cons of all the various options and tuning knobs.
- AndrewKemendo 4mo ago
  Why do you find it ethically ok to continue to support the Department of Defense/War?
  - mhb 4mo ago
    How does the cognitive dissonance of having the luxury to express that opinion while being protected by the most powerful military in the world not rip you apart?
    - AndrewKemendo 4mo ago
      Do you just follow me around with the same tired argument? Again…I spent 17 years as a military officer I’m not hearing anything from someone that hasn’t served anything. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48478867 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48478867
      - mhb 4mo ago
        > Do you just follow me around with the same tired argument? Indeed not. You're the one who made the comment on something I submitted.
    - skulk 4mo ago
      It feels like the US military is 90% racketeering and 10% physically protecting Americans, if that. Most of our protection comes from two gigantic oceans on both sides. Though, I really do enjoy this racket so I guess I'm not allowed to ask any questions about the ethics of keeping it going.
- deleted 4mo ago
stratosgear 4mo ago
Hate that "warfighter" has entered our vocabulary. It's so kitsch...
stefantalpalaru 4mo ago
[dead]

42 points by mhb 4mo ago

This is being announced to us or everyone right now? It's only around 10 weeks away: that seems surprisingly close. Have some folk already been made aware & have they had time to build for this DARPA Challenges? Generally I think of them as longer running challenges.

ThunderBee 4mo ago
this competition was announced October last year. IIRC registration ended sometime Q1 this year.
fc417fc802 4mo ago
> Generally I think of them as longer running challenges. Given how outlandish the ratio requirement is compared to currently available products I expect this one will be recurring for at least a few years similar to what happened with the self driving challenge 20ish years ago.
mhb 4mo ago
I'm looking forward to the DARPA Challenge to create a service where you can sign up to be emailed about new challenges. This one started October, 2025. More details at https://www.darpa.mil/research/challenges/lift/competitors https://www.darpa.mil/research/challenges/lift/competitors "Phase 1 | Launch October 2025 Special Notice publishing (Oct. 23): DARPA publishes a Special Notice to broadly announce the Lift Challenge and solicit innovative design concepts. Website launches (Oct. 23): DARPA publishes a Special Notice to broadly announce the Lift Challenge and solicit innovative design concepts. Rules and prize announcement (Oct. 23): Detailed draft rules and prize structure are announced, specifying objective and subjective judging criteria."

Schlagbohrer 4mo ago

Darpa.mil got slashdotted? Wow. The folks who invented the internet...

emsign 4mo ago

The military is waking up to the need to adapt frontline logistics. With killrates of 90% for traditional trucks in the Ukraine war, without resupply missions by UAVs/UGVs holding positions is impossible now.

fc417fc802 4mo ago
If the truck killrate is 90% what is it for troop transports? How do infantry get in and out of position?
- sneezychl 4mo ago
  > How do infantry get in and out of position? They don't. Life expectancy of a Russian on the front line is hours. You just send in another wave.
  - fc417fc802 4mo ago
    If that were the case then there wouldn't be anyone there to receive the resupply to begin with.
    - lukan 4mo ago
      Also .. if that were the case russia would not find volunteers anymore, as the large majority of russian soldiers in Ukraine are there by free will, not because they were force drafted. Edit, I forgot, most are not aware of that: https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-conscripts-war-combat/33415104.html https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-conscripts-war-combat...
- lukan 4mo ago
  Armored carriers if avaiable.
- torginus 4mo ago
  Quads and dirt bikes afaik.
- 4mo ago

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

brador 4mo ago

Really just a battery challenge. Possibly against laws of physics at energy density of 4x?

eichin 4mo ago
I saw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tohImHa4f5U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tohImHa4f5U (Hoarder Sam, "I'm building a drone for the DARPA lift challenge") the other day and it was a pretty good discussion of the "shape of the envelope" of the problem (and what kind of lift ratios actually exist in modern air vehicles), and particularly how they've set up the constraints to eliminate a bunch of "easy" approaches. It also reminded me that for the first round of the self-driving grand challenge, none of the vehicles even completed the course :-) They really are trying to encourage "out of the box", or at least "not in the obvious box", designs...
echoangle 4mo ago
It doesn’t prescribe batteries as far as I can see. You can also build a gasoline powered vehicle which would get you roughly 6 times the energy density.

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

bob1029 4mo ago

> Competitors must create an aircraft that is both lightweight and powerful – lifting at least 4x its weight while flying a 5-nautical-mile circuit course. I'd make it 50NM. 5 is way too easy to bullshit with edge case engineering. Alternatively, set a minimum payload capacity of something like 100kg.

TeMPOraL 4mo ago
Maybe "edge case engineering" is precisely what they're looking for? Get people to think about beating the rules with cheesy strategies, in hopes some of those could, with some cleverness, scale up and evolve into proper, broad-range solution - or at least become a key previously-missing component of one. But even if it can't, very narrow capabilities can still be useful too; military isn't beyond doing silly things if they offer enough tactical advantage (enough to offset extra burden on logistics, at least).
xnx 4mo ago
Giant hot air balloon for lift + 4 rotors for steering? It wouldn't be fast, but it might work [in low wind conditions].
- mhb 4mo ago
  Rules exclude that approach.
- echoangle 4mo ago
  https://www.darpa.mil/research/challenges/lift/rules https://www.darpa.mil/research/challenges/lift/rules Forbidden in 3.7
echoangle 4mo ago
How would you build a bullshit solution to move 2.5 pound around a 5 mile course (maneuvering) with a vehicle weight below 0.63 pound? I think if you solve that it’s not a bullshit solution but actually useful.
Legend2440 4mo ago
From the rules: >110 pounds is the minimum payload weight to receive a qualifying score.

childintime 4mo ago

CATL is working on 12000 Wh/kg air batteries, they will solve this problem, give them the prize.

uberex 4mo ago

Hydrogen-filled balloon wins

deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
le-mark 4mo ago
Not allowed by the rules.
sysreq_ 4mo ago
The container required to hold 100 m^3 of compressed gas easily breaks your weight limit. Viable but not viable given the rules.

dang 4mo ago

[stub for offtopicness] [title fixed now]

konchunas 4mo ago
It's Heavy Lift, not life
- kreelman 4mo ago
  When life gets tough... Contact DARPA for a lift !
- A_D_E_P_T 4mo ago
  Heavy life challenge: Biology usually discriminates against heavy isotopes. Can we reverse, redirect, or exploit that tendency? Find a way to get plants and bacteria to preferentially incorporate heavy atomic isotopes. Use microbes, algae, duckweed, or plant-cell cultures to produce deuterated and 13C/15N-labeled complex biomolecules that are expensive or impractical to synthesize chemically. Could be fun, honestly.
  - azalemeth 4mo ago
    I know you're joking, but changes in isotopes mildly affect reduced mass and hence enzyme kinetics. Maize and other C4 plants already preferentially enrich themselves with 13C [0-3] which occasionally buggers up metabolomic experiments. Famously, a few drugs use 2H rather than natural abundance H typically in order to exploit a kinetic isotopic effect and get a better Km in their binding pocket [4]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractionation_of_carbon_isotopes_in_oxygenic_photosynthesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractionation_of_carbon_isotop... [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7577891/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7577891/ [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1734681/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1734681/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C4_plants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C4_plants [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterated_drug#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterated_drug#Examples
    - 4mo ago

sysreq_ 4mo ago

Been working this for a few months now. It’s not a crazy hard problem - but it does break the mold of distance and speed taking priority over capacity. If you have any questions feel free to ask. I can get into the pros/cons of all the various options and tuning knobs.

AndrewKemendo 4mo ago
Why do you find it ethically ok to continue to support the Department of Defense/War?
- mhb 4mo ago
  How does the cognitive dissonance of having the luxury to express that opinion while being protected by the most powerful military in the world not rip you apart?
  - AndrewKemendo 4mo ago
    Do you just follow me around with the same tired argument? Again…I spent 17 years as a military officer I’m not hearing anything from someone that hasn’t served anything. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48478867 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48478867
    - mhb 4mo ago
      > Do you just follow me around with the same tired argument? Indeed not. You're the one who made the comment on something I submitted.
  - skulk 4mo ago
    It feels like the US military is 90% racketeering and 10% physically protecting Americans, if that. Most of our protection comes from two gigantic oceans on both sides. Though, I really do enjoy this racket so I guess I'm not allowed to ask any questions about the ethics of keeping it going.
deleted 4mo ago

stratosgear 4mo ago

Hate that "warfighter" has entered our vocabulary. It's so kitsch...

stefantalpalaru 4mo ago

[dead]