4 ms·

Ask why it suddenly got so expensive and why delays were introduced. Hint, it happened more in some countries than others.

bjourne 4mo ago
Hint, being snarky on HN is not as cool as you think. Nuclear "became expensive" because state subsidies declined, labor costs increased, and environmental regulations across all industries tightened.
- Moldoteck 4mo ago
  this is nonsense. Take german plants - zero subsidies for operation, plants were built mostly by private sector. In France - no CFD's for existing units, plants were constructed by govt for about 150bn. In comparison Germany spent on EEG subsidies double of that and you can see the result in emissions...
  - bjourne 4mo ago
    Really? Which private sector built nuclear power plants in East Germany? In West Germany most plants were constructed by state-controlled enterprises and there were no expectation of them to ever reach profitability.
    - Moldoteck 4mo ago
      it wasn't fully state controlled enterprises in the west - state was a partial owner. For example PreussenElektra, when it built plants was a publicly traded company and during Grohnde state mostly divested from it. Plants not only reached profitability but were cheapest firm power in german merit order bringing huge profits to the owners
      - bjourne 4mo ago
        According to Wikipedia, PreussenElektra was a subsidiary of VEBA, a state owned energy company. You have to cite your sources here because I don't want to have to rebut made-up stuff. I do note that you have changed your argument from "plants were built mostly by private sector" to "it wasn't fully state controlled enterprises in the west". Closer to the truth, but still incorrect.
        Moldoteck 4mo ago
        I stand corrected. VEBA was state owned at that time. On the other hand RWE was 50/50 private-municipality owned in the same period. Still, no CFDs were given to them. So it's not about state reducing subsidies. Nor was it about environment regulations. The high costs of recent western projects are more related to depleted supply chain and poor designs of the plants. We'll get a chance soon to observe how Canada and Korea will build in Europe. Both have much better supply chain and both want to build (Czechia- apr and Romania -candu). If both will have the same cost blows as flamanville then it's clearly related to EU itself. If not- then the problem was EDF incompetence specifically here and Westinghouse incompetence in US
        bjourne 4mo ago
        As I said, cite your sources. You claim RWE was a public-private partnership "in the same period" but don't even state which period. Your claim about CFDs is a complete non-sequitur as I never claimed that the subsidies were in the form of CFDs.
        Moldoteck 4mo ago
        In what forms were subsidies given then? Because per Bundestag there were no operational subsidies.
        bjourne 4mo ago
        Subsidized capital mostly. When you go to a private bank and want to borrow billions of money the bank will ask you "what for?" You tell it "nuclear, might generate profit in 25 years" and it will quote you an interest rate. The rate will be insanely high due to the risk. So you borrow the money from the government at a much lower interest rate.

bjourne 4mo ago

Hint, being snarky on HN is not as cool as you think. Nuclear "became expensive" because state subsidies declined, labor costs increased, and environmental regulations across all industries tightened.

Moldoteck 4mo ago
this is nonsense. Take german plants - zero subsidies for operation, plants were built mostly by private sector. In France - no CFD's for existing units, plants were constructed by govt for about 150bn. In comparison Germany spent on EEG subsidies double of that and you can see the result in emissions...
- bjourne 4mo ago
  Really? Which private sector built nuclear power plants in East Germany? In West Germany most plants were constructed by state-controlled enterprises and there were no expectation of them to ever reach profitability.
  - Moldoteck 4mo ago
    it wasn't fully state controlled enterprises in the west - state was a partial owner. For example PreussenElektra, when it built plants was a publicly traded company and during Grohnde state mostly divested from it. Plants not only reached profitability but were cheapest firm power in german merit order bringing huge profits to the owners
    - bjourne 4mo ago
      According to Wikipedia, PreussenElektra was a subsidiary of VEBA, a state owned energy company. You have to cite your sources here because I don't want to have to rebut made-up stuff. I do note that you have changed your argument from "plants were built mostly by private sector" to "it wasn't fully state controlled enterprises in the west". Closer to the truth, but still incorrect.
      - Moldoteck 4mo ago
        I stand corrected. VEBA was state owned at that time. On the other hand RWE was 50/50 private-municipality owned in the same period. Still, no CFDs were given to them. So it's not about state reducing subsidies. Nor was it about environment regulations. The high costs of recent western projects are more related to depleted supply chain and poor designs of the plants. We'll get a chance soon to observe how Canada and Korea will build in Europe. Both have much better supply chain and both want to build (Czechia- apr and Romania -candu). If both will have the same cost blows as flamanville then it's clearly related to EU itself. If not- then the problem was EDF incompetence specifically here and Westinghouse incompetence in US
        bjourne 4mo ago
        As I said, cite your sources. You claim RWE was a public-private partnership "in the same period" but don't even state which period. Your claim about CFDs is a complete non-sequitur as I never claimed that the subsidies were in the form of CFDs.
        Moldoteck 4mo ago
        In what forms were subsidies given then? Because per Bundestag there were no operational subsidies.
        bjourne 4mo ago
        Subsidized capital mostly. When you go to a private bank and want to borrow billions of money the bank will ask you "what for?" You tell it "nuclear, might generate profit in 25 years" and it will quote you an interest rate. The rate will be insanely high due to the risk. So you borrow the money from the government at a much lower interest rate.