4 ms·

There are ideas that ancient human thinking was very different and primitive compared to modern. For example (and others): The Origin of Consciousness in the Br

There are ideas that ancient human thinking was very different and primitive compared to modern. For example (and others): The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes (1976)

applfanboysbgon 4mo ago
In much the same way there are 'ideas' that aliens built pyramids.
crooked-v 4mo ago
That one is an interesting scifi premise, but deeply unpersuasive when it comes to actual humans.
- Hikikomori 4mo ago
  It was one of the main influences for the cyberpunk Snow Crash novel.
  - shawn_w 4mo ago
    And an even bigger influence in Stephenson's first book, The Big U.
seanclayton 4mo ago
In the half century that has passed since the publishing of that book, plenty of work has been done to say that ancient human thinking wasn't primitive, especially the ones that made the pyramids 4,600 years ago, such as the Red Sea Scrolls: How Ancient Papyri Reveal the Secrets of the Pyramids by Mark Lehner and Pierre Tallet (2022) which alludes to the minds of competent and intelligent humans
jleyank 4mo ago
Comparing Plato to various current-day companies and governments, this is true. Assuming "primitive" means "clear or unobscured".
effed3 4mo ago
probably this is an effect of a much more simple environment and tasks in the past: Sleep, hunt and not been hunted, eat, reproduce. the minds seems simpler, but is apparent. We live in a more complex world, this produce someting more complex, culture, ideas, knowledge, tasks, technology, craps.. but basic intelligence i think is the same (if not better in the past, less "pollution")
- kbelder 4mo ago
  If I was to sum up Jaynes' most relevant idea, I'd say it is that language is a technological advancement that evolved to handle more abstract and powerful concepts over time. Ten thousand years ago, humans were biologically the same as today, but their tool of language wasn't advanced enough to effectively communicate or contemplate some concepts, and it led to a reduced inner monologue and explicit self-awareness. When I first read it, I remember thinking that this was the most interesting book I've read that is probably wrong.
  - effed3 4mo ago
    I don't have read jaines. To me the language was different yes, but the mind is another thing, but the two are cleary related. I think humans need (and create) more concepts, more complex/different idea, to grasp/describe a more complex world around, but the mind is equally capable now as 50k-years ago. Probably in the past minds can contemplate things we are not more aware today, who know? is not all about rational and scientific thinking, is not more or less advanced, is simply different, and in the past humans needed a quite different set of ideas and tools than today. Just travel to Papua-NewGuinea and check with some tribe in a lost valley, straigh from Neolythic, some does not have a concept of "3", but children can learn arithmetic as everyone else, they can contemplate every concept we have, given the right path.

applfanboysbgon 4mo ago

In much the same way there are 'ideas' that aliens built pyramids.

crooked-v 4mo ago

That one is an interesting scifi premise, but deeply unpersuasive when it comes to actual humans.

Hikikomori 4mo ago
It was one of the main influences for the cyberpunk Snow Crash novel.
- shawn_w 4mo ago
  And an even bigger influence in Stephenson's first book, The Big U.

seanclayton 4mo ago

In the half century that has passed since the publishing of that book, plenty of work has been done to say that ancient human thinking wasn't primitive, especially the ones that made the pyramids 4,600 years ago, such as the Red Sea Scrolls: How Ancient Papyri Reveal the Secrets of the Pyramids by Mark Lehner and Pierre Tallet (2022) which alludes to the minds of competent and intelligent humans

jleyank 4mo ago

Comparing Plato to various current-day companies and governments, this is true. Assuming "primitive" means "clear or unobscured".

effed3 4mo ago

probably this is an effect of a much more simple environment and tasks in the past: Sleep, hunt and not been hunted, eat, reproduce. the minds seems simpler, but is apparent. We live in a more complex world, this produce someting more complex, culture, ideas, knowledge, tasks, technology, craps.. but basic intelligence i think is the same (if not better in the past, less "pollution")

kbelder 4mo ago
If I was to sum up Jaynes' most relevant idea, I'd say it is that language is a technological advancement that evolved to handle more abstract and powerful concepts over time. Ten thousand years ago, humans were biologically the same as today, but their tool of language wasn't advanced enough to effectively communicate or contemplate some concepts, and it led to a reduced inner monologue and explicit self-awareness. When I first read it, I remember thinking that this was the most interesting book I've read that is probably wrong.
- effed3 4mo ago
  I don't have read jaines. To me the language was different yes, but the mind is another thing, but the two are cleary related. I think humans need (and create) more concepts, more complex/different idea, to grasp/describe a more complex world around, but the mind is equally capable now as 50k-years ago. Probably in the past minds can contemplate things we are not more aware today, who know? is not all about rational and scientific thinking, is not more or less advanced, is simply different, and in the past humans needed a quite different set of ideas and tools than today. Just travel to Papua-NewGuinea and check with some tribe in a lost valley, straigh from Neolythic, some does not have a concept of "3", but children can learn arithmetic as everyone else, they can contemplate every concept we have, given the right path.