4 ms·

America is the place for very few people to get wealthy relatively compared to the rest is more accurate. I don't know how long this asymmetric upside down pyr

America is the place for very few people to get wealthy relatively compared to the rest is more accurate. I don't know how long this asymmetric upside down pyramid structure will hold. Monopoly on violence requires participants to believe in its continuity, any fracture in perception no matter how small, will create an increasingly chaotic redistribution effect.

gottorf 4mo ago
"The rest" is still quite wealthy, even by today's developed economy standards. Median household disposable income is higher in Mississippi, a state widely panned for its poverty, than Germany, the richest major EU nation. In American discourse, there's a ton of talk about inequality from the haves against the have-mores, pushing policy that often times will lead to worse outcomes for the have-nots.
- zuzululu 4mo ago
  [dead]
- micro2588 4mo ago
  median household income is not higher in missisippi vs germany, especially not true if you adjust for the value of healthcare, education, and social benefits including time off work.
  - gottorf 4mo ago
    There are, of course, many ways to measure this, some of which are slightly higher for Germany and some for Mississippi. Many are in the same ballpark, which is pretty crazy to think about. Many of these statistics take into account the taxpayer-funded programs you mentioned. Broadly speaking, the median Mississippian is about as rich as the median German, with the tradeoff being that the Mississippian has greater access to private goods (e.g. a fishing boat or a big car), whereas the German has greater access to public goods (e.g. socialized insurance or college). My point is that even "the poor" in America are really quite well off, and not just in historical terms.
    - micro2588 4mo ago
      Why is the median considered "poor"? The true poor in Mississippi are way worse off than those in Germany. If you neglect everything it takes to live a good life like public capital, education, healthcare, time off with family, a retirement, total years on this earth and ignore the insane inequality in Mississippi then sure the median numbers are not that far off.
      - gottorf 4mo ago
        > Why is the median considered "poor" Because most big-city coastal Americans think of the median Mississippian as that way. > If you neglect everything it takes to live a good life [...] We're speaking past each other somewhat. You seem to have a belief system that says a good life is not possible without the stuff that Germany provides via taxation and redistribution. Whether that stuff is a necessary or sufficient condition for a good life for you, I'm not sure; but it is clear you place a lot of importance on it. I'm saying that in America, more of those things are left to choice to the people, and that a good life, even a great life, is available to the average Joe (hence my banging on about the median) in one of the poorest states in the union, to a degree that is not matched anywhere else. Put another way: you've defined a good life in large part as access to taxpayer-subsidized goods and services, or at any rate the lifestyle outcomes enabled by such access. By that metric, you're right, Mississippi comes behind Germany, and America as a whole likely behind Germany. But if you look at people voting with their feet over the past few decades, more Germans settled in America than the other way around in absolute numbers; which is even more striking if you consider the difference in population. Clearly there exist people who value the stuff that America has to offer that Germany doesn't.
        micro2588 4mo ago
        Emigration of Germans to the USA is only 10,00-15,000 people per year since 2000 and is trending down especially since 2016 to lowest levels ever. Emigration of US citizens to Germany started from almost nothing around the same time and is now trending up to almost 1,500 people a year. We are talking about a small number of decidedly non median people in either case but even then the rate of change is clear, neglecting the fact that Germans learn English in public school while Americans typically don't have public schooling in German. My family is descended from German immigrants who came during the 1930s to escape right wing authoritarianism.
WalterBright 4mo ago
The top 1% of America pays 40% of the federal income taxes. Getting rid of the rich is probably a pretty bad idea for the rest of us.
- wewtyflakes 4mo ago
  This is a byproduct of wild wealth disparity, not because the rich are so generous with paying the government.
  - blanched 4mo ago
    Right - and iirc the bottom of the 1% is somewhere around 700k. Still a ton of money, but very very far off from a billion.
    - fsckboy 4mo ago
      >700k. Still a ton of money, but very very far off from a billion that 700K is income, but the billion is assets. earning 700K is the income from $10 million in the stock market (although working to earn $700K is in exchange for you time while the income from $10 mil is passive. OTOH people with the work ethic to earn like that tend to like what they do. a billion in the stock market is $70 million a year, a large number but far from a billion. TLDR: 700K compares to a billion 1 in 1000, but the truth is closer to 1 in 100
  - WalterBright 4mo ago
    And if you take away their money, then who is going to fund the government and all those wealth redistribution programs?
    - laughing_man 4mo ago
      There are US state governments discovering this right now. I would have thought it was obvious.
      - 4mo ago
nunez 4mo ago
Disagree. I have gripes with my country right now, but it's impossible to ignore how much easier to make and save a lot of money here in the US compared to other places. First, it's so easy to start a business in the US. $1000 (maybe less?) gets you an LLC or an S-Corp, properly done with an accountant. $200/mo gets you a virtual office or a coworking space. Tax code is also friendly to small businesses. Healthcare is the only disadvantage, though you can get on group plans to work around that. If you have an idea, it's easy (well, easier) to scale it in the US. Actually, going back to taxes. Tax in the US is CHEAP compared to other developed countries. I met someone from Denmark some time ago that told my wife and I that they left to escape 50% taxes. Here, the worst you'll do is ~38%, federal, state and city combined. This means that you can make great money as a worker bee depending on the industry. All of this is a major reason why so many people all over the world come to the US, make their money (with enough to send to family back home) and move back.
- WalterBright 4mo ago
  You can start your own business in WA state with $50 to get a license.

gottorf 4mo ago

"The rest" is still quite wealthy, even by today's developed economy standards. Median household disposable income is higher in Mississippi, a state widely panned for its poverty, than Germany, the richest major EU nation. In American discourse, there's a ton of talk about inequality from the haves against the have-mores, pushing policy that often times will lead to worse outcomes for the have-nots.

zuzululu 4mo ago
[dead]
micro2588 4mo ago
median household income is not higher in missisippi vs germany, especially not true if you adjust for the value of healthcare, education, and social benefits including time off work.
- gottorf 4mo ago
  There are, of course, many ways to measure this, some of which are slightly higher for Germany and some for Mississippi. Many are in the same ballpark, which is pretty crazy to think about. Many of these statistics take into account the taxpayer-funded programs you mentioned. Broadly speaking, the median Mississippian is about as rich as the median German, with the tradeoff being that the Mississippian has greater access to private goods (e.g. a fishing boat or a big car), whereas the German has greater access to public goods (e.g. socialized insurance or college). My point is that even "the poor" in America are really quite well off, and not just in historical terms.
  - micro2588 4mo ago
    Why is the median considered "poor"? The true poor in Mississippi are way worse off than those in Germany. If you neglect everything it takes to live a good life like public capital, education, healthcare, time off with family, a retirement, total years on this earth and ignore the insane inequality in Mississippi then sure the median numbers are not that far off.
    - gottorf 4mo ago
      > Why is the median considered "poor" Because most big-city coastal Americans think of the median Mississippian as that way. > If you neglect everything it takes to live a good life [...] We're speaking past each other somewhat. You seem to have a belief system that says a good life is not possible without the stuff that Germany provides via taxation and redistribution. Whether that stuff is a necessary or sufficient condition for a good life for you, I'm not sure; but it is clear you place a lot of importance on it. I'm saying that in America, more of those things are left to choice to the people, and that a good life, even a great life, is available to the average Joe (hence my banging on about the median) in one of the poorest states in the union, to a degree that is not matched anywhere else. Put another way: you've defined a good life in large part as access to taxpayer-subsidized goods and services, or at any rate the lifestyle outcomes enabled by such access. By that metric, you're right, Mississippi comes behind Germany, and America as a whole likely behind Germany. But if you look at people voting with their feet over the past few decades, more Germans settled in America than the other way around in absolute numbers; which is even more striking if you consider the difference in population. Clearly there exist people who value the stuff that America has to offer that Germany doesn't.
      - micro2588 4mo ago
        Emigration of Germans to the USA is only 10,00-15,000 people per year since 2000 and is trending down especially since 2016 to lowest levels ever. Emigration of US citizens to Germany started from almost nothing around the same time and is now trending up to almost 1,500 people a year. We are talking about a small number of decidedly non median people in either case but even then the rate of change is clear, neglecting the fact that Germans learn English in public school while Americans typically don't have public schooling in German. My family is descended from German immigrants who came during the 1930s to escape right wing authoritarianism.

WalterBright 4mo ago

The top 1% of America pays 40% of the federal income taxes. Getting rid of the rich is probably a pretty bad idea for the rest of us.

wewtyflakes 4mo ago
This is a byproduct of wild wealth disparity, not because the rich are so generous with paying the government.
- blanched 4mo ago
  Right - and iirc the bottom of the 1% is somewhere around 700k. Still a ton of money, but very very far off from a billion.
  - fsckboy 4mo ago
    >700k. Still a ton of money, but very very far off from a billion that 700K is income, but the billion is assets. earning 700K is the income from $10 million in the stock market (although working to earn $700K is in exchange for you time while the income from $10 mil is passive. OTOH people with the work ethic to earn like that tend to like what they do. a billion in the stock market is $70 million a year, a large number but far from a billion. TLDR: 700K compares to a billion 1 in 1000, but the truth is closer to 1 in 100
- WalterBright 4mo ago
  And if you take away their money, then who is going to fund the government and all those wealth redistribution programs?
  - laughing_man 4mo ago
    There are US state governments discovering this right now. I would have thought it was obvious.
    - 4mo ago

nunez 4mo ago

Disagree. I have gripes with my country right now, but it's impossible to ignore how much easier to make and save a lot of money here in the US compared to other places. First, it's so easy to start a business in the US. $1000 (maybe less?) gets you an LLC or an S-Corp, properly done with an accountant. $200/mo gets you a virtual office or a coworking space. Tax code is also friendly to small businesses. Healthcare is the only disadvantage, though you can get on group plans to work around that. If you have an idea, it's easy (well, easier) to scale it in the US. Actually, going back to taxes. Tax in the US is CHEAP compared to other developed countries. I met someone from Denmark some time ago that told my wife and I that they left to escape 50% taxes. Here, the worst you'll do is ~38%, federal, state and city combined. This means that you can make great money as a worker bee depending on the industry. All of this is a major reason why so many people all over the world come to the US, make their money (with enough to send to family back home) and move back.

WalterBright 4mo ago
You can start your own business in WA state with $50 to get a license.