4 ms·

Experimentation on prisoners is unethical

toomuchtodo 4mo ago
Nothing wrong with making GLP-1s freely available to all who want them if it improves metabolic health, reduces addiction, reduces cancer and inflammation risk, etc. Side effects are known and data to date shows risks are low. Ship it to everyone who wants it imho and kick off the longitudinal study. The aggregate potential benefit is so high and the risk and cost reasonably low. Certainly, no one should ever be forced to take it, or be experimented on without their explicit, informed consent (and "experimented on" in this context is "taking the GLP-1 already and we're just tracking the outcomes at scale").
asdff 4mo ago
There would be informed consent. We aren't the SS.
- devmor 4mo ago
  The SS's policy towards the interred was heavily inspired by the policies the United States was already famous for. We have a historically monstrous record of unethical medical testing against both interred and underprivileged populations.
  - asdff 4mo ago
    Well, today in 2026 there would be informed consent.
    - devmor 4mo ago
      There is no reason to assume that. The US currently inters tens of thousands of people without access to family or legal counsel.
      - asdff 4mo ago
        Are we currently experimenting on these prisoners like the imperial japanese army? The answer is absolutely not.
    - WarmWash 4mo ago
      Would you like to hear about treatment of prisoners in early middle age Europe?
    - grayhatter 4mo ago
      Why is that true today, but wasn't true the many times some group in the US did medical experiments on some vulnerable population without a complete disclosure let alone consent?
      - asdff 4mo ago
        Things go through institutional review boards now that are concerned with such past failures.
        grayhatter 4mo ago
        I admire your trust in other people.
        asdff 4mo ago
        Do you have a better solution?
        grayhatter 4mo ago
        Yes, don't perform medical experiments on people who can't consent, and loudly object when someone suggests anything that sounds like it.
        asdff 4mo ago
        That is what informed consent is designed to achieve. What you want people already thought about and tried to implement in a realistic way to achieve those goals.
- DANmode 4mo ago
  Non prisoners being prescribed this don’t know what gastroparesis is. In that context (no informed consent in drug sales), no, prisoners will not receive informed consent in drug trials.
  - asdff 4mo ago
    >no, prisoners will not receive informed consent in drug trials. Citation needed.
Bender 4mo ago
I only mean offer it to them for free so they don't have to sneak in with the assorted peptides and other compounds. Many body builders have already been using Retatrutide for a couple years for muscle definition even though it is not yet approved. I would be quite surprised if they were not already sneaking it into the prison system. Government funded, sourced and dosed should be somewhat safer than going to sketchy websites that require bitcoin and no guarantees of purity. If I were a prison guard or warden I would be happy to encourage prisoners to use any compound that may improve their impulse control which is likely one of the root causes of their incarceration in the first place.
- grayhatter 4mo ago
  > I only mean offer it to them for free so they don't have to [...] That would be a nice idea, but > Any plans to trial these types of drugs in the prison system? Is a very different question from "how long until it gets approval for impulse control, and cheap enough that anyone can get access to it?" Especially considering how foreign the idea of consent is as a concept to software engineers.
wahern 4mo ago
Tell that to the many prisoners who participated in and benefited from HIV and hepatitis vaccine trials. What a travesty it would have been if there were a blanket ban on prisoner research. Research on prisoners is subject to stricter standards, though. From the HHS website: > Research involving prisoners is permissible only if the research involves one or more of four permissible categories, or if the research meets the criteria described in an HHS Secretarial waiver that applies to certain epidemiological research [...] > (i) the study of the possible causes, effects, and processes of incarceration, and of criminal behavior, and > (ii) the study of prisons as institutional structures or of prisoners as incarcerated persons. [...] > (iii) research on conditions particularly affecting prisoners as a class; [...] > (iv) research on practices, either innovative or accepted, which have the intent and reasonable probability of improving the health or well-being of the subject. [...] https://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/regulations-and-policy/guidance/faq/prisoner-research/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/regulations-and-policy/guidance/faq...
red-iron-pine 4mo ago
there are things like consent forms and patient incentives. prisoners ain't got much else to do and many would be game if it afforded them more time doing X or extra canteen money. plus this isn't an experimental drug that will give them mega-cancer or immediately cause their organs to explode -- GLP-1s have been given to much of the population already and their side effects are very well documented.

Nothing wrong with making GLP-1s freely available to all who want them if it improves metabolic health, reduces addiction, reduces cancer and inflammation risk, etc. Side effects are known and data to date shows risks are low. Ship it to everyone who wants it imho and kick off the longitudinal study. The aggregate potential benefit is so high and the risk and cost reasonably low. Certainly, no one should ever be forced to take it, or be experimented on without their explicit, informed consent (and "experimented on" in this context is "taking the GLP-1 already and we're just tracking the outcomes at scale").

asdff 4mo ago

There would be informed consent. We aren't the SS.

devmor 4mo ago
The SS's policy towards the interred was heavily inspired by the policies the United States was already famous for. We have a historically monstrous record of unethical medical testing against both interred and underprivileged populations.
- asdff 4mo ago
  Well, today in 2026 there would be informed consent.
  - devmor 4mo ago
    There is no reason to assume that. The US currently inters tens of thousands of people without access to family or legal counsel.
    - asdff 4mo ago
      Are we currently experimenting on these prisoners like the imperial japanese army? The answer is absolutely not.
  - WarmWash 4mo ago
    Would you like to hear about treatment of prisoners in early middle age Europe?
  - grayhatter 4mo ago
    Why is that true today, but wasn't true the many times some group in the US did medical experiments on some vulnerable population without a complete disclosure let alone consent?
    - asdff 4mo ago
      Things go through institutional review boards now that are concerned with such past failures.
      - grayhatter 4mo ago
        I admire your trust in other people.
        asdff 4mo ago
        Do you have a better solution?
        grayhatter 4mo ago
        Yes, don't perform medical experiments on people who can't consent, and loudly object when someone suggests anything that sounds like it.
        asdff 4mo ago
        That is what informed consent is designed to achieve. What you want people already thought about and tried to implement in a realistic way to achieve those goals.
DANmode 4mo ago
Non prisoners being prescribed this don’t know what gastroparesis is. In that context (no informed consent in drug sales), no, prisoners will not receive informed consent in drug trials.
- asdff 4mo ago
  >no, prisoners will not receive informed consent in drug trials. Citation needed.

Bender 4mo ago

I only mean offer it to them for free so they don't have to sneak in with the assorted peptides and other compounds. Many body builders have already been using Retatrutide for a couple years for muscle definition even though it is not yet approved. I would be quite surprised if they were not already sneaking it into the prison system. Government funded, sourced and dosed should be somewhat safer than going to sketchy websites that require bitcoin and no guarantees of purity. If I were a prison guard or warden I would be happy to encourage prisoners to use any compound that may improve their impulse control which is likely one of the root causes of their incarceration in the first place.

grayhatter 4mo ago
> I only mean offer it to them for free so they don't have to [...] That would be a nice idea, but > Any plans to trial these types of drugs in the prison system? Is a very different question from "how long until it gets approval for impulse control, and cheap enough that anyone can get access to it?" Especially considering how foreign the idea of consent is as a concept to software engineers.

wahern 4mo ago

Tell that to the many prisoners who participated in and benefited from HIV and hepatitis vaccine trials. What a travesty it would have been if there were a blanket ban on prisoner research. Research on prisoners is subject to stricter standards, though. From the HHS website: > Research involving prisoners is permissible only if the research involves one or more of four permissible categories, or if the research meets the criteria described in an HHS Secretarial waiver that applies to certain epidemiological research [...] > (i) the study of the possible causes, effects, and processes of incarceration, and of criminal behavior, and > (ii) the study of prisons as institutional structures or of prisoners as incarcerated persons. [...] > (iii) research on conditions particularly affecting prisoners as a class; [...] > (iv) research on practices, either innovative or accepted, which have the intent and reasonable probability of improving the health or well-being of the subject. [...] https://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/regulations-and-policy/guidance/faq/prisoner-research/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/regulations-and-policy/guidance/faq...

red-iron-pine 4mo ago

there are things like consent forms and patient incentives. prisoners ain't got much else to do and many would be game if it afforded them more time doing X or extra canteen money. plus this isn't an experimental drug that will give them mega-cancer or immediately cause their organs to explode -- GLP-1s have been given to much of the population already and their side effects are very well documented.