4 ms·

There is an awesome YouTube video about this from the person who made it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nHbA2-_qzH4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nHbA2-_qzH4

nzach 4mo ago
This link is way more interesting than the original ieee. It was submitted to HN 2 times already but unfortunately it flew under the radar: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DnHbA2-_qzH4 https://hn.algolia.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwa...
- ckemere 4mo ago
  Upvoted them both. I’m an ECE prof, and the video summed up why working with students is so rewarding.
techwizrd 4mo ago
I found the video on YouTube before the IEEE article. It's a fascinating story.
adolph 4mo ago
Wow, I'm glad to see that person is getting some more recognition for this work. A claim in the video that I can't verify but makes economic/logistic sense is that the speed problem isn't the panels but the controllers. The current crop of controllers are optimized for low power, which fits the e-reader use case but that is not optimal for the interactive use case.
- jolmg 4mo ago
  > The current crop of controllers are optimized for low power, which fits the e-reader use case but that is not optimal for the interactive use case. Why try to contort the technology for something it's not good at, instead of using a more appropriate technology like transflective LCDs? Eink isn't the only option for reflective displays. If you increase the power use of eink to get better refresh rates, I imagine you'd end up using more power than (and still end up with lower refresh rates than) an MIP display. I don't understand the growth of the market as a whole for eink monitors, when tLCDs exist and are disappearing from the market.
  - adolph 4mo ago
    It isn't clear to me that eink's underlying display technology isn't good at the interactive computing use case so much as the implementations aren't optimized for it. There could be a position where more power than an eink reader is used but still far less than traditional active displays since unchanged pixels aren't driven.
    - alex-a-soto 4mo ago
      That's how I think about it too. E-readers are vertically integrated devices: the hardware, software, UI, and refresh behavior are all tailored around reading. E-ink tablets like reMarkable are similar, but optimized around writing and annotation. A traditional monitor is much more general-purpose, so it doesn't get the same kind of end-to-end optimization for the display medium. I think there's room for an in-between category: a more interactive e-ink device where both the hardware and software are designed around the strengths and limits of the panel. There's some related work happening in this direction: https://nlnet.nl/project/epd-wayland/ https://nlnet.nl/project/epd-wayland/
    - adrian_b 4mo ago
      It should be good enough for interactive use, but not for watching movies. In TFA it is said that for these new faster panels the transition time of a pixel is around 50 ms. This is comparable with some old LCDs.
  - enragedcacti 4mo ago
    I'm pretty sure e-ink has a much higher ceiling for reflectance than TLCDs/RLCDs, so you'll be able to use it comfortably without a frontlight in a lot more situations which could more than make up for increased power usage. I think they are also naturally better in terms of glare compared to any type of LCD.
    - Groxx 4mo ago
      Viewing angles are also fantastic compared to almost all T/R LCDs - they tend to be fairly directional. It's a great display tech for many things that don't need 60+fps.
- freewestpapua 4mo ago
  > A claim in the video that I can't verify but makes economic/logistic sense is that the speed problem isn't the panels but the controllers. I don't understand the claim. It is lacking in specifics. Are they claiming that electrophoretic materials (meaning the panels) can actually switch (meaning move pigments) faster than say x.y micrometers per second? I don't think that is true. The article shows that what Wenting did ("binary transition") is pretty much the same as what companies like Dasung did. Instead of trying to have grayscale, it is faster to hit somewhat-black and somewhat-white and give the illusion of fast movement than actual fast movement.
  - adolph 4mo ago
    > Are they claiming that electrophoretic materials (meaning the panels) can actually switch (meaning move pigments) faster than say x.y micrometers per second? No, I think the claim is that the controllers are slower that what the panels can theoretically support.
    - freewestpapua 4mo ago
      > > Are they claiming that electrophoretic materials (meaning the panels) can actually switch (meaning move pigments) faster than say x.y micrometers per second? > No, I think the claim is that the controllers are slower that what the panels can theoretically support. That claim that controllers are slower than panel (that's the electrophoretic material) doesn't seem reasonable to me. I guess that's why there's no specific numbers and data shown.
deepspace 4mo ago
I was watching the video the other day, and my jaw dropped. Wenting is a display-technology beast. Watch his other videos too; he seems to be able to squeeze every last bit of possible performance out of every kind of display, and then some.
addaon 4mo ago
Okay, that video is great. Product questions that I couldn't find an answer to. From https://www.crowdsupply.com/modos-tech/modos-flow https://www.crowdsupply.com/modos-tech/modos-flow, I see "On the go, you can power Flow at up to 40 Hz with a single USB Type-C cable. At a desk, you can connect additional power and take advantage of its full 60 Hz refresh rate." 1) This surprises me a bit... is USB-PD incompatible with DisplayPort alt mode, or is this just based on an observation that display port devices tend to give limited power output? 2) Is every DisplayPort alt mode host able to give enough power to run at 40 Hz? In particular, can this be driven on the go directly from an iPhone? 3) Is that second USB port usable as a data port hubbed to the device when powering over the DisplayPort port? 4) I know it's possible to provide power from the display back to the host device when using DisplayPort alt mode -- when powering the display from the second USB-C port, is the connected device also powered? The two use cases that would be super interesting to me is plugging this in to my iPhone or similar on-the-go, and plugging a USB-C keyboard into the second port on it for quick e-mails at the coffee shop and similar; and plugging this in to an iPhone, plugging my power bank into the monitor and keeping the monitor in high-power mode and the iPhone charging while working with a Bluetooth keyboard. Obviously I don't expect it to handle these use cases out of the box, but... open source! This is really a question about what the hardware design is capable of, not the current software/firmware/FPGA capabilities.
- alex7o 4mo ago
  I really want to buy it so I searched for the same questions bit in the end I just decided to go for it
- tjoff 4mo ago
  1) Lots of desktop displays provide picture and high power, but very few laptops (and rarely even desktops) can provide any significant power from their ports (can be done of course but it is a cost thing). 2) I'd say yes (if the iphone supports it). Biggest caveat in my mind is whether the iphone allows enough current to drive the display. 3) Doubt it. 4) That is how these normally work, I don't know but that would be my expectation.

nzach 4mo ago

This link is way more interesting than the original ieee. It was submitted to HN 2 times already but unfortunately it flew under the radar: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DnHbA2-_qzH4 https://hn.algolia.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwa...

ckemere 4mo ago
Upvoted them both. I’m an ECE prof, and the video summed up why working with students is so rewarding.

techwizrd 4mo ago

I found the video on YouTube before the IEEE article. It's a fascinating story.

adolph 4mo ago

Wow, I'm glad to see that person is getting some more recognition for this work. A claim in the video that I can't verify but makes economic/logistic sense is that the speed problem isn't the panels but the controllers. The current crop of controllers are optimized for low power, which fits the e-reader use case but that is not optimal for the interactive use case.

jolmg 4mo ago
> The current crop of controllers are optimized for low power, which fits the e-reader use case but that is not optimal for the interactive use case. Why try to contort the technology for something it's not good at, instead of using a more appropriate technology like transflective LCDs? Eink isn't the only option for reflective displays. If you increase the power use of eink to get better refresh rates, I imagine you'd end up using more power than (and still end up with lower refresh rates than) an MIP display. I don't understand the growth of the market as a whole for eink monitors, when tLCDs exist and are disappearing from the market.
- adolph 4mo ago
  It isn't clear to me that eink's underlying display technology isn't good at the interactive computing use case so much as the implementations aren't optimized for it. There could be a position where more power than an eink reader is used but still far less than traditional active displays since unchanged pixels aren't driven.
  - alex-a-soto 4mo ago
    That's how I think about it too. E-readers are vertically integrated devices: the hardware, software, UI, and refresh behavior are all tailored around reading. E-ink tablets like reMarkable are similar, but optimized around writing and annotation. A traditional monitor is much more general-purpose, so it doesn't get the same kind of end-to-end optimization for the display medium. I think there's room for an in-between category: a more interactive e-ink device where both the hardware and software are designed around the strengths and limits of the panel. There's some related work happening in this direction: https://nlnet.nl/project/epd-wayland/ https://nlnet.nl/project/epd-wayland/
  - adrian_b 4mo ago
    It should be good enough for interactive use, but not for watching movies. In TFA it is said that for these new faster panels the transition time of a pixel is around 50 ms. This is comparable with some old LCDs.
- enragedcacti 4mo ago
  I'm pretty sure e-ink has a much higher ceiling for reflectance than TLCDs/RLCDs, so you'll be able to use it comfortably without a frontlight in a lot more situations which could more than make up for increased power usage. I think they are also naturally better in terms of glare compared to any type of LCD.
  - Groxx 4mo ago
    Viewing angles are also fantastic compared to almost all T/R LCDs - they tend to be fairly directional. It's a great display tech for many things that don't need 60+fps.
freewestpapua 4mo ago
> A claim in the video that I can't verify but makes economic/logistic sense is that the speed problem isn't the panels but the controllers. I don't understand the claim. It is lacking in specifics. Are they claiming that electrophoretic materials (meaning the panels) can actually switch (meaning move pigments) faster than say x.y micrometers per second? I don't think that is true. The article shows that what Wenting did ("binary transition") is pretty much the same as what companies like Dasung did. Instead of trying to have grayscale, it is faster to hit somewhat-black and somewhat-white and give the illusion of fast movement than actual fast movement.
- adolph 4mo ago
  > Are they claiming that electrophoretic materials (meaning the panels) can actually switch (meaning move pigments) faster than say x.y micrometers per second? No, I think the claim is that the controllers are slower that what the panels can theoretically support.
  - freewestpapua 4mo ago
    > > Are they claiming that electrophoretic materials (meaning the panels) can actually switch (meaning move pigments) faster than say x.y micrometers per second? > No, I think the claim is that the controllers are slower that what the panels can theoretically support. That claim that controllers are slower than panel (that's the electrophoretic material) doesn't seem reasonable to me. I guess that's why there's no specific numbers and data shown.

deepspace 4mo ago

I was watching the video the other day, and my jaw dropped. Wenting is a display-technology beast. Watch his other videos too; he seems to be able to squeeze every last bit of possible performance out of every kind of display, and then some.

addaon 4mo ago

Okay, that video is great. Product questions that I couldn't find an answer to. From https://www.crowdsupply.com/modos-tech/modos-flow https://www.crowdsupply.com/modos-tech/modos-flow, I see "On the go, you can power Flow at up to 40 Hz with a single USB Type-C cable. At a desk, you can connect additional power and take advantage of its full 60 Hz refresh rate." 1) This surprises me a bit... is USB-PD incompatible with DisplayPort alt mode, or is this just based on an observation that display port devices tend to give limited power output? 2) Is every DisplayPort alt mode host able to give enough power to run at 40 Hz? In particular, can this be driven on the go directly from an iPhone? 3) Is that second USB port usable as a data port hubbed to the device when powering over the DisplayPort port? 4) I know it's possible to provide power from the display back to the host device when using DisplayPort alt mode -- when powering the display from the second USB-C port, is the connected device also powered? The two use cases that would be super interesting to me is plugging this in to my iPhone or similar on-the-go, and plugging a USB-C keyboard into the second port on it for quick e-mails at the coffee shop and similar; and plugging this in to an iPhone, plugging my power bank into the monitor and keeping the monitor in high-power mode and the iPhone charging while working with a Bluetooth keyboard. Obviously I don't expect it to handle these use cases out of the box, but... open source! This is really a question about what the hardware design is capable of, not the current software/firmware/FPGA capabilities.

alex7o 4mo ago
I really want to buy it so I searched for the same questions bit in the end I just decided to go for it
tjoff 4mo ago
1) Lots of desktop displays provide picture and high power, but very few laptops (and rarely even desktops) can provide any significant power from their ports (can be done of course but it is a cost thing). 2) I'd say yes (if the iphone supports it). Biggest caveat in my mind is whether the iphone allows enough current to drive the display. 3) Doubt it. 4) That is how these normally work, I don't know but that would be my expectation.