5 ms·
Modos Color Monitor Pushes E-Paper Displays Further
- functionmouse 4mo agoUnfortunately the pen is probably USI, making it borderline useless as a pen. This will not be like S-pen or Apple Pencil.
- varun_ch 4mo agoI think this device isn’t so much about a pen. It seems like it could be a really nice typing or coding or reading display. Maybe a future model could improve on the pen
- WillAdams 4mo agoThe thing is, to get a pen right, all that they have to do is license Wacom EMR/Samsung's S-Pen (Samsung owns a 40% stake in Wacom, hence using their stylus tech). Styluses w/ batteries/capacitors were okay once upon a time, but Wacom EMR "just works" and makes my life simpler/nicer (I couldn't count how many styluses I have around my house/in my bags so as to allow me to use my Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360, Galaxy Note 10+, Kindle Scribe Coloursoft, and Wacom One display (attached to a MacBook).
- functionmouse 4mo agoEMR patents and design specs expired. It's free. China's tooling simply hasn't caught up, because the output doesn't have to feel or work good, it simply has to look good in a kickstarter. Conjecture: I feel like this is like half the reason styluses as a technology are dying; the other half is the untimely death of the resistive display. Bring back resistive touch!
- WillAdams 4mo agoRadio frequency/compatibility seems to be a consideration --- also, don't understate the importance of tooling/tolerances even w/ Wacom overseeing things, I've had to return name-brand/licensed styluses which would not work consistently across all of my devices.
- Palomides 4mo agoI think licensing anything from wacom or samsung is a big ask for a two person(?) project that's making a very small run of open source/open hardware devices
- hgoel 4mo agoAs a fellow EMR stylus enjoyer, which one do you prefer the most? The thin one in the phones tends to be too small to use comfortably and the one that comes with the Galaxy Book/tablets is decent (but the Galaxy Book has very inconsistent support for the buttons). The Wacom One stylus used to be my favorite, but lately I've been enjoying using the Kindle Scribe stylus/the fat Staedler stylus (I think they're both very similar in usage experience).
- WillAdams 4mo agoMy favourite stylus is the Staedtler Noris Digital Stylus which stands in for the classic #2 pencil quite nicely. That said, these days, I mostly use the Premium Pen included w/ my first-gen Kindle Scribe, or a Wacom One stylus (where the Staedtler used to be, prompted by my chipping and cracking the screen on my GB3 and having to apply a screen protector --- the harder tip on the W1 being a better match). The Staedtler Noris Jumbo is nice, but I wish it had a side switch. The pens bundled w/ my Samsung Galaxy Books (panic-bought a spare when the afore-mentioned screen incident happened) are fine, but I am annoyed that there's no silo (agree w/ Samsung being hobbled by their agreement w/ Wacom being annoying). Don't like the feel of the white Kindle Scribe Coloursoft stylus --- too rubbery. My backup is a Lamy Safari Wacom EMR which I keep in my travel sling bag --- if I could justify a second, I'd probably EDC it and it would get promoted to favourite. There are a few others which I've been meaning to try....
- WillAdams 4mo agoIn the above, "rubbery" should read round, and the attribute "rubbery" applies to the eraser.
- zipy124 4mo agoAlthough I can't find an authoritative source on it the indications do support that assumption that it is USI. Technically USI doesn't have to be bad, it just appears that quality control on the standard is bad (similarly to how USB cables often don't meet the spec and can cause troubles as a result). Firmware can be checked here: https://gitlab.com/zephray/enchanter https://gitlab.com/zephray/enchanter
- functionmouse 4mo agoSure. But USI is bad unless the OEM goes out of their way to make it good, whereas EMR is good unless the OEM goes out of their way to make it bad. EMR is the better tech, and with patents expired, and numerous other benefits such as no batteries needed in the pen, it should be standard now.
- alex-a-soto 4mo agoThe stylus solution is provided by E Ink to us. E Ink made the switch from EMR to USI a few years ago, so most E Ink devices, including the Modos Flow are using USI now.
- varun_ch 4mo agoThere is an awesome YouTube video about this from the person who made it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nHbA2-_qzH4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nHbA2-_qzH4
- nzach 4mo agoThis link is way more interesting than the original ieee. It was submitted to HN 2 times already but unfortunately it flew under the radar: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DnHbA2-_qzH4 https://hn.algolia.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwa...
- ckemere 4mo agoUpvoted them both. I’m an ECE prof, and the video summed up why working with students is so rewarding.
- techwizrd 4mo agoI found the video on YouTube before the IEEE article. It's a fascinating story.
- adolph 4mo agoWow, I'm glad to see that person is getting some more recognition for this work. A claim in the video that I can't verify but makes economic/logistic sense is that the speed problem isn't the panels but the controllers. The current crop of controllers are optimized for low power, which fits the e-reader use case but that is not optimal for the interactive use case.
- jolmg 4mo ago> The current crop of controllers are optimized for low power, which fits the e-reader use case but that is not optimal for the interactive use case. Why try to contort the technology for something it's not good at, instead of using a more appropriate technology like transflective LCDs? Eink isn't the only option for reflective displays. If you increase the power use of eink to get better refresh rates, I imagine you'd end up using more power than (and still end up with lower refresh rates than) an MIP display. I don't understand the growth of the market as a whole for eink monitors, when tLCDs exist and are disappearing from the market.
- xnx 4mo ago> two-person startup is back fund-raising for Modos Flow, a 13.3-inch color e-paper monitor with a higher native resolution of 3,200 x 2,400, touch input, and a 60Hz refresh rate Those are some mighty specs. Godspeed.
- user_7832 4mo agoIf I had the 600-odd dollars, I'd absolutely buy this. It's a damn shame it's so expensive.
- acc_297 4mo agoI think the 600 dollar price is more than double the price of the same diplay as a mass-produced product it's a price for enthusiasts of the technology and it's open source so nothing stops a bigger producer of copying the exact technology with institutional funding and manufacturing expertise
- ndiddy 4mo agoThere is no mass market product with the same specifications. The closest equivalents from established companies are the Dasung Paperlike 13K and Bigme B13, both of which cost the same or more than the Modos.
- sleepybrett 4mo agoyeah i'm waiting for a 32" mass production model for this pricepoint.
- davebren 4mo agoI wasted 2k on a color e-ink monitor that ended up being pretty much unusable. Reviews said as much but the risk was worth it to me for the chance to spend my days looking at something that doesn't feel like a screen. I believe it's an "if you build it they will come" thing especially for anyone working on a computer all day.
- unshavedyak 4mo ago
- throwwwll 4mo agoPrice?
- nzach 4mo agoU$ 619 for the black and white model and U$ 719 for the color model https://www.crowdsupply.com/modos-tech/modos-flow#products https://www.crowdsupply.com/modos-tech/modos-flow#products
- throwwwll 4mo agothumbs down
- acc_297 4mo agothat is almost guaranteed an at-cost production figure for the limited run of kickstarter funded displays there isn't a production line producing these things - watch the youtube video this guy quit his job for over a year to build a passion project into a prototype
- borg16 4mo agosaw the video - that was so much better than this ieee link. learnt a lot in the process too - kudos to him
- good8675309 4mo agoNot bad considering this is a niche specialty product and cutting edge. The price will come down if the demand and market grow. Assuming raw hardware costs stop rising
- imglorp 4mo agoWill it? The whole e-ink market seems like it has never priced flexibly.
- 4mo ago
- jackb4040 4mo agoBetween this, the Daylight computer (I know it's RLCD), and some of the flagship Boox devices, I'm very excited for where alternative display technology is going in the next couple years. Displays that you can use outside and that drain the battery way slower open up so many possibilities for auxiliary devices. My ideal device would be an ultralight android tablet with a keyboard case and an outdoor display good enough to watch youtube on, that needs to be charged less than once per day. Hopefully this product is super successful and Modos move on to standalone devices next. There are counter trends, like Garmin discontinuing their e-paper smartwatches. But hopefully that has more to do with that market being too narrow for viable alternatives, and not a fundamental issue with the economics of the displays themselves.
- afandian 4mo agoPebble is back, with MIP reflective LCD. I have one. It's great. https://repebble.com/ https://repebble.com/
- abrowne 4mo agoBangle.js 2 (https://banglejs.com/ https://banglejs.com/) also has a transflective LCD. It's very fun product with a great community. Bangle.js 3 is being discussed: https://github.com/orgs/espruino/discussions/7341 https://github.com/orgs/espruino/discussions/7341
- afandian 4mo agoCool! I didn’t know it was transreflective. Do you have one? How’s the contrast?
- Groxx 4mo agoA bit low when not in a relatively bright area (say a house during the day without lights on), but that's largely solved by the backlight or a small tilt to catch light better. And in direct sunlight it's excellent. The display isn't as nice as Pebble Time (fewer colors, more directional, overall slightly dimmer) but it's more than functional enough. Transflective is obviously the right choice for watches, I don't know why everything else has gone for phone-like panels that are often unreadable and kill battery life.
- dleeftink 4mo ago> Don’t make yourself regret the things you didn’t do Nothing to add, but it bears repeating. A shimmer of indie tech resilience
- MrPapz 4mo agoThe Crowd Supply website mentions the high power consumption but it would be great if I could connect it to a smartphone to work on the go!
- mikeweiss 4mo agoThis paired with LLMs....Looks like we'll have harry potter magic portraits soon! You could have a conversation with a portrait on your wall....
- dyauspitr 4mo agoIf you update that often it’s probably going to chew through the battery though.
- smlacy 4mo agoSo this is basically an advertisement for their product?
- t23414321 4mo agoDimensions of monitor are: 315 x 254 x 16 mm - but what are dimensions of visible screen ? - is it enough to match A4 format 297 x 210 mm ?
- empalms 4mo agoBeen casually following the ePaper/eInk device space for years now and Modos is one of the more exciting developments I've come across in the space. Seriously impressive. That said, I'm curious what impact the increased refresh rate might have on a Carta panel's longevity. I assume the physical medium that allows each 'pixel' to be on/off has a certain tolerance after which the screen begins to degrade beyond a usable state. Separately, I also want to understand more about how Wenting's approach differs (or not) from the flickering modern displays use to emit a picture, and, whether the direction actually addresses eye strain or reproduces the same issues (I'm assuming are) inherent in LCD/LED displays — i.e. it's the flickering that strains our eyes, not just light. Maybe someone more versed than I am in this space would know. After 10+ years of computer work... my eyes hurt and I really want this to be a game changer.
- alex-a-soto 4mo agoIn normal use, we don't expect fast refresh to significantly reduce an E Ink panel's lifetime. The E Ink material itself is long-lived, the main stress is on the driving electronics and waveform behavior during refreshes. Our approach doesn't add extra refresh cycles, the display starts responding sooner, which improves perceived speed without adding extra refreshes. So far, fast refresh hasn't been the dominant failure mode in our testing. Physical stress, bending, pressure, heat, and moisture are much larger risks. On eye strain: E Ink is reflective and bistable, so a static image doesn't require continuously emitted light. Fast updates can still produce artifacts like flashing, dithering, or ghosting, but that's a different issue from a display that continuously flickers. So I'd say this addresses an important part of the problem, though comfort will vary by person. Also I recommend checking out the following resources: - https://github.com/Modos-Labs/Glider https://github.com/Modos-Labs/Glider - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okjJURIejIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okjJURIejIY
- ndiddy 4mo agoI've seen these portable e-ink monitors available for nearly 10 years now, but this one seems to be the first that's responsive enough for general usage, which is a big step forward. Out of curiosity, if anyone here has one, what do you use it for? There must be something people are using them for if they've been a product niche for so long, but I can't think of what I would do with a standalone 13 inch e-ink monitor.
- joshu 4mo agoi can't decide if i want the monochrome or color one
- locusofself 4mo agoHow awesome would it be if it was reasonably priced AND doubled as a large eReader ?
- zero0529 4mo agoLast time I read about them (here in HN) somebody highlighted that the problem wasn’t to get them to function at a high refresh rate, the problem is they stop being energy effecient at that rate. Now I mostly skimmed the article but I couldn’t find any information regarding that.
- formvoltron 4mo agoso if I get one... anyone know if it may stop working in the future when macos changes something? Or does it not require installed software drivers?
- rbanffy 4mo agoIf it behaves like a DisplayPort monitor, it should continue working.
- billy_bitchtits 4mo agoWhen will I be able to get a 35” color e ink display with this high refresh rate?
- TheRealPomax 4mo agoI just wish someone would look at the input side, too. I want true digital paper that I can draw on in real time already. Not the laggy nonsense that even stupidly overpowered tablets can't seem to get passed.
- rbanffy 4mo agoDoes anyone else wish Pixel-Qi and the OLPC hadn’t disappeared?