5 ms·

The Pirate Bay Trial Day 3: The ‘King Kong’ Defense

43 points by rogercosseboom 18y ago

rms 18y ago
I can't believe they are going to win this. This is going to have interesting long term consequences.
- Hexstream 18y ago
  I believe "winning" is a bit of an understatement here.
- bep 18y ago
  I do believe it. Sometimes is worth remembering that the laws of the USA are different to the rest of the world, and under Swedish law, is very probable they will win.
mikecuesta 18y ago
I can't see the link, who's winning??
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- twopoint718 18y ago
  It doesn't seem that clear, but it does look better for TPB than I would have expected. Half of the charges against them have already been thrown out, and they are making the argument that, as the administers of the site, they don't post torrents, users do. The prosecution has to point to these specific users (who may have screennames such as "King Kong", hence the title).
- vaksel 18y ago
  http://tinypaste.com/a86a3 http://tinypaste.com/a86a3 here I did a copy paste for you
rogercosseboom 18y ago
Further Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_kong_defense http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_kong_defense
jacoblyles 18y ago
I find the legalism of the defense tedious. Automating the process of being an accessory to a crime should not be a defense for it. "I didn't help people break the law, the automated program that I created did" just doesn't fly with me. This ought to be a conversation about intellectual property. If you believe in it, there is little justification for the legality of TPB. If you don't, then TPB is fine. The defense's arguments seem juvenile.
- gruseom 18y ago
  You find legalism tedious in a legal defense? Seems to me that's the one place it's appropriate.
  - jacoblyles 18y ago
    I guess I should be more clear. Their defense is probably the best strategy for defeating the charges in a court of law. But the tone of obvious righteousness that the defendants and the internet community has taken on seems unwarranted given the flimsy nature of their arguments. Or maybe someone can explain to me why helping people break the law should be legal. Arguing minutiae might be a good way to win in court. But outside of court, the term "legalistic" has a negative connotation. Legalistic arguments are seldom a good way to convince people that you are right. I don't understand why they seem to convinced so many people with such a legalistic defense.
    - unalone 18y ago
      Or maybe someone can explain to me why helping people break the law should be legal. Does Google break the law because it makes it easy for me to search for mp3s to download? Or are they providing a useful service, and in doing do creating functionality that makes it possible to do illegal things? ThePirateBay is an extension of that idea: if you make a service, even if that service breaks laws you are not to blame. And TPB is pretty much at the limit of that: they mock the people who've been stolen, they openly admit they help pirates - and yet, they themselves have done nothing wrong. They provide a service. They're allowed to call attention to the laws broken by their users and it's still not breaking the law. Arguing minutiae might be a good way to win in court. It's not minutiae. I find it a pretty repugnant attitude, this assumption that things ought to be black-and-white simple. They haven't broken the law. That's why they're winning. It's like this: if somebody asks me where they can download an album for free, because I know and they don't, if I tell them I'm not breaking the law. I'm merely being useful. That's what TPB's done. They don't steal movies. They don't host stolen content. They merely make it easy for people to find it, and that's shady, but not illegal. But outside of court, the term "legalistic" has a negative connotation. For me, "legalistic" has a pretty positive connotation. It implies that there's thought behind a process, and that logic is being used. It's a lot better than "impulsive judgement," which is what you're using. You don't defend your points. You just assume that they're bad and wrong and that we're all stupid to be defending it - that despite the many, many stories posted here that explain very specifically the rights that ThePirateBay has. I don't understand why they seem to convinced so many people with such a legalistic defense. Partly because a lot of us like free stuff, yes. But partly it's because a lot of people care about this stuff, and we think the RIAA is just as shady as ThePirateBay, and we want to see a new method come in that doesn't allow a bunch of legal-minded people with no appreciation for music and music distribution to cheat bands out of money, to deny a lot of musicians the right to profit, and to pursue draconic punishments for the people who speak out against them.
mixmax 18y ago
One thing is for sure: Thepiratebay is much much better at marketing than the recording industry.
mariorz 18y ago
I would be more inclined to support the guys if I didn't believe they were making boatloads of money with the site.
- Herring 18y ago
  They're not ripping you off, why do you care? Does poverty make you more virtuous?
  - mariorz 18y ago
    I see no intention or interest at all in maybe piping back some of that money directly to content creators. I'm aware of the logistical problems that would entail, but trying something like that would be truly commendable and even revolutionary (even if insignificant economically). They seem to present themselves as if they were doing this purely out of love or their beliefs, while serving some of the most atrocious ads on the www. I see them constantly mocking the media's business interests while they themselves have obviously a big money interest on the matter. I think that makes them less virtuous.
    - Herring 18y ago
      All you did was repeat that you'd like them more if they were making less money (or making empty gestures). I don't doubt that you think that, I'm just wondering why. Is any of your content on TPB? Have they stopped you from running adblock? Why would you want them to have less of an incentive to serve you?
      - mariorz 18y ago
        It would make their attitude seem less hypocritical.
        Herring 18y ago
        No, I haven't heard them saying hollywood makes too much money. It's usually something about right to share, or subverting other countries' laws.
globalrev 18y ago
Is the pirate bay making money?
- mariorz 18y ago
  Considering the insane amounts of traffic they get and the kinds of ads they serve, I'd be hard pressed to believe they weren't making a small fortune.
  - jacquesm 18y ago
    this is pure speculation, but since we're down that road anyway: The Pirate Bay has hosting in quite a few places, but many of them are in Europe where you pay a good premium for bandwidth. Yes, they have some good advertising contracts but I'd be very surprised if it didn't eat up just about what it makes. The reason for this is that I think their user demographics are shifted towards people that do not really want to pay for content ;)
    - globalrev 18y ago
      They seem to say generally that they don't make much money but obviously that doesn't mean that they don't.
      - rms 18y ago
        Yes, they are clearly lying and misleading a whole lot on the stand. Or at least plausibly denying.
drawkbox 18y ago
The 1 download = 1 lost sale is totally flawed. It is probably closer to participation rates online for anything which is less that 1%. Probably closer to 1000 downloads = 1 lost sale or even 10000 downloads = 1 lost sale. Some people have re-downloaded content that they have previously bought on multiple formats.
- humanlever 18y ago
  A judge in the US has agreed: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/01/judge-17000-illegal-downloads-dont-equal-17000-lost-sales.ars http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/01/judge-17000-...
njharman 18y ago
In response to the preview global license and 1 download = 1 lost sale. I'd argue that the buzz created by the torrent release of Lost increased it's viewership/ratings and the owners in fact owe my clients a percentage of show's profits for their marketing efforts. I'd point out that my theory has just as much evidence as their theory on lost sales, Actually since Lost was profitable there is more evidence for preview torrent increasing profits than there is for it costing sales. And you should not be able to claim lost sales for something you are not currently selling or plan to sell in immediate future.
manish 18y ago
The era of IP, pay per download etc is going to fade away, music companies are better off make money by subscription from user to download all the music they want. Something like oreilly safari http://my.safaribooksonline.com http://my.safaribooksonline.com. This would atleast for now make users stream or download from official sources.

rms 18y ago

I can't believe they are going to win this. This is going to have interesting long term consequences.

Hexstream 18y ago
I believe "winning" is a bit of an understatement here.
bep 18y ago
I do believe it. Sometimes is worth remembering that the laws of the USA are different to the rest of the world, and under Swedish law, is very probable they will win.

mikecuesta 18y ago

I can't see the link, who's winning??

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
twopoint718 18y ago
It doesn't seem that clear, but it does look better for TPB than I would have expected. Half of the charges against them have already been thrown out, and they are making the argument that, as the administers of the site, they don't post torrents, users do. The prosecution has to point to these specific users (who may have screennames such as "King Kong", hence the title).
vaksel 18y ago
http://tinypaste.com/a86a3 http://tinypaste.com/a86a3 here I did a copy paste for you

rogercosseboom 18y ago

Further Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_kong_defense http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_kong_defense

jacoblyles 18y ago

I find the legalism of the defense tedious. Automating the process of being an accessory to a crime should not be a defense for it. "I didn't help people break the law, the automated program that I created did" just doesn't fly with me. This ought to be a conversation about intellectual property. If you believe in it, there is little justification for the legality of TPB. If you don't, then TPB is fine. The defense's arguments seem juvenile.

gruseom 18y ago
You find legalism tedious in a legal defense? Seems to me that's the one place it's appropriate.
- jacoblyles 18y ago
  I guess I should be more clear. Their defense is probably the best strategy for defeating the charges in a court of law. But the tone of obvious righteousness that the defendants and the internet community has taken on seems unwarranted given the flimsy nature of their arguments. Or maybe someone can explain to me why helping people break the law should be legal. Arguing minutiae might be a good way to win in court. But outside of court, the term "legalistic" has a negative connotation. Legalistic arguments are seldom a good way to convince people that you are right. I don't understand why they seem to convinced so many people with such a legalistic defense.
  - unalone 18y ago
    Or maybe someone can explain to me why helping people break the law should be legal. Does Google break the law because it makes it easy for me to search for mp3s to download? Or are they providing a useful service, and in doing do creating functionality that makes it possible to do illegal things? ThePirateBay is an extension of that idea: if you make a service, even if that service breaks laws you are not to blame. And TPB is pretty much at the limit of that: they mock the people who've been stolen, they openly admit they help pirates - and yet, they themselves have done nothing wrong. They provide a service. They're allowed to call attention to the laws broken by their users and it's still not breaking the law. Arguing minutiae might be a good way to win in court. It's not minutiae. I find it a pretty repugnant attitude, this assumption that things ought to be black-and-white simple. They haven't broken the law. That's why they're winning. It's like this: if somebody asks me where they can download an album for free, because I know and they don't, if I tell them I'm not breaking the law. I'm merely being useful. That's what TPB's done. They don't steal movies. They don't host stolen content. They merely make it easy for people to find it, and that's shady, but not illegal. But outside of court, the term "legalistic" has a negative connotation. For me, "legalistic" has a pretty positive connotation. It implies that there's thought behind a process, and that logic is being used. It's a lot better than "impulsive judgement," which is what you're using. You don't defend your points. You just assume that they're bad and wrong and that we're all stupid to be defending it - that despite the many, many stories posted here that explain very specifically the rights that ThePirateBay has. I don't understand why they seem to convinced so many people with such a legalistic defense. Partly because a lot of us like free stuff, yes. But partly it's because a lot of people care about this stuff, and we think the RIAA is just as shady as ThePirateBay, and we want to see a new method come in that doesn't allow a bunch of legal-minded people with no appreciation for music and music distribution to cheat bands out of money, to deny a lot of musicians the right to profit, and to pursue draconic punishments for the people who speak out against them.

mixmax 18y ago

One thing is for sure: Thepiratebay is much much better at marketing than the recording industry.

mariorz 18y ago

I would be more inclined to support the guys if I didn't believe they were making boatloads of money with the site.

Herring 18y ago
They're not ripping you off, why do you care? Does poverty make you more virtuous?
- mariorz 18y ago
  I see no intention or interest at all in maybe piping back some of that money directly to content creators. I'm aware of the logistical problems that would entail, but trying something like that would be truly commendable and even revolutionary (even if insignificant economically). They seem to present themselves as if they were doing this purely out of love or their beliefs, while serving some of the most atrocious ads on the www. I see them constantly mocking the media's business interests while they themselves have obviously a big money interest on the matter. I think that makes them less virtuous.
  - Herring 18y ago
    All you did was repeat that you'd like them more if they were making less money (or making empty gestures). I don't doubt that you think that, I'm just wondering why. Is any of your content on TPB? Have they stopped you from running adblock? Why would you want them to have less of an incentive to serve you?
    - mariorz 18y ago
      It would make their attitude seem less hypocritical.
      - Herring 18y ago
        No, I haven't heard them saying hollywood makes too much money. It's usually something about right to share, or subverting other countries' laws.

globalrev 18y ago

Is the pirate bay making money?

mariorz 18y ago
Considering the insane amounts of traffic they get and the kinds of ads they serve, I'd be hard pressed to believe they weren't making a small fortune.
- jacquesm 18y ago
  this is pure speculation, but since we're down that road anyway: The Pirate Bay has hosting in quite a few places, but many of them are in Europe where you pay a good premium for bandwidth. Yes, they have some good advertising contracts but I'd be very surprised if it didn't eat up just about what it makes. The reason for this is that I think their user demographics are shifted towards people that do not really want to pay for content ;)
  - globalrev 18y ago
    They seem to say generally that they don't make much money but obviously that doesn't mean that they don't.
    - rms 18y ago
      Yes, they are clearly lying and misleading a whole lot on the stand. Or at least plausibly denying.

drawkbox 18y ago

The 1 download = 1 lost sale is totally flawed. It is probably closer to participation rates online for anything which is less that 1%. Probably closer to 1000 downloads = 1 lost sale or even 10000 downloads = 1 lost sale. Some people have re-downloaded content that they have previously bought on multiple formats.

humanlever 18y ago
A judge in the US has agreed: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/01/judge-17000-illegal-downloads-dont-equal-17000-lost-sales.ars http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/01/judge-17000-...

njharman 18y ago

In response to the preview global license and 1 download = 1 lost sale. I'd argue that the buzz created by the torrent release of Lost increased it's viewership/ratings and the owners in fact owe my clients a percentage of show's profits for their marketing efforts. I'd point out that my theory has just as much evidence as their theory on lost sales, Actually since Lost was profitable there is more evidence for preview torrent increasing profits than there is for it costing sales. And you should not be able to claim lost sales for something you are not currently selling or plan to sell in immediate future.

manish 18y ago

The era of IP, pay per download etc is going to fade away, music companies are better off make money by subscription from user to download all the music they want. Something like oreilly safari http://my.safaribooksonline.com http://my.safaribooksonline.com. This would atleast for now make users stream or download from official sources.