7 ms·

Drone crashes mount at civilian airports

103 points by stfu 14y ago

AYBABTME 14y ago
"Please sign in to access this article and other exclusive content." That's not very convenient.
- eli 14y ago
  Strange, I didn't get that message. Try this http://viewtext.org/article?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fworld%2Fnational-security%2Fdrone-crashes-mount-at-civilian-airports-overseas%2F2012%2F11%2F30%2Fe75a13e4-3a39-11e2-83f9-fb7ac9b29fad_story.html http://viewtext.org/article?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonp...
ivany 14y ago
A bit off-topic but per the NYU/Stanford "Living Under Drones" report[1], the use of military drones for "fighting terrorism" has been frightening, to say the least. It turns out that only about 2% of the people killed in Pakistan by drones are high-level terrorists, and collateral damage including women and children is a extremely common. Furthermore, "double-strike" standard operating procedure specifically targets first responders by hitting a target a second time minutes or hours after the first strike. The whole thing is pretty sick and based on the accounts in the report, drone activities terrorize the population as simply being near a terrorist (or someone profiled as a terrorist based on their behavior) can get you killed. [1] http://livingunderdrones.org/ http://livingunderdrones.org/
- Evbn 14y ago
  This is exactly the sort of misbehavior that the IDF explicitly claims to avoid, to minimize collateral damage. IDF may not be following its own claimed standards either, but everyone should.
Tyrant505 14y ago
Obviously not a gamer..
- smoyer 14y ago
  But what about the shorts and tee-shirt? Everyone knows you can only fly a drone properly if dressed in a complete flight-suit.
  - barrkel 14y ago
    The BBC used to have a policy of requiring evening dress for their radio announcers. There's something to be said for an inflexible and rules-bound mindset when operating critical machinery - making sure checklists are followed, etc. More fluid application of smarts may be necessary in an emergency, but not as a matter of routine.
  - tangue 14y ago
    I was thinking the same thing but then I asked myself if the guys killing people at the other side of the world were dressed like that, and feel ill at ease.
    - techdmn 14y ago
      Is it the killing that bothers, or the casual dress?
      - barrkel 14y ago
        It's the combination that's problematic. It suggests that the killing is done lightly and carelessly, and it cheapens human lives.
        mythealias 14y ago
        And yet that is the fact. The worth of human life is decided but what's in the pocket. The sooner you accept it the easier it will be.
cstross 14y ago
The most worrying angles seem to be human factors issues: the lack of coordination between drone crews and airport ATC, and the apparent deficits in training/qualification of pilots. "Similar accident rate to F-16s at a similar time in their development" doesn't fill me with joy either; combat aircraft can expect a crash or major incident on the order of once per 10,000 flying hours, whereas for airliners the equivalent rate is roughly one crash or major incident per 10^7 hours -- three orders of magnitude safer! It's like comparing over-powered motorbikes in the hands of reckless teenagers with school buses. The original justification for deploying drones over manned aircraft was that the drones could be built cheaper -- no expensive aircrew to risk in event of a crash, so less need for complex safety systems and multiple redundancy. Now put this cheap, cheerful, and not terribly safe device in the hands of a lowest-bidder contractor's hired help, who may or may not have been hired because they were cheap rather than able to do the job ... And now imagine the bikers in this metaphor are riding on a stretch of road used by buses, are ignoring the traffic signs, and that a crash will kill everyone involved (including the full bus), and you've got a grasp of the picture we're looking at here.
- sebcat 14y ago
  They should make the UI user safe. If it goes point-and-click, they could hire almost anyone to operate it. Easier said than done, I guess.
  - sami36 14y ago
    In civilian airports equipped with ILS navigation support. Modern commercial aircraft can literally land themselves without human input. As long as runways are properly equipped with the right beacons, automatic landings of drones are not far fetched.
    - dalke 14y ago
      Did you all read some of the problems which arose? In one crash report, the drone took "off without permission from the control tower". In another, "an armed Predator suffered an electrical malfunction that sent it into a death spiral." A third was partially due to a "melted throttle part." A forth started when "[t]wo minutes after takeoff, the engine failed." Another concern is that air control gives "priority to passenger planes and order[s] drone pilots to keep their aircraft circling overhead even when they are dangerously low on fuel." Yes, some of the problems were human error. But from the statistics given, UI errors and improved navigation support give at most a 30% reduction in the crash rates. While what's needed is several orders of magnitude improvement to make it match the commercial crash rates.
arjn 14y ago
This is very strange. Why are military "contractors" flying these things ? Should they be trained military personnel piloting the drones ?
- UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
  I am somewhat reading between the lines but from the article it sounds like military contractors handle the local take-off and landing then hand over the drone to the military for the actual combat missions. I'm guessing they are using microwave communication locally for a more reliable link (than satellite). Since you need twitch responsive communications for take-off and landing. Once the drone is in the air if it loses communications with the ground then it just either flies it predetermined route or at least flies straight and level until communications are re-established. The problem here seems to be that people both on the military side and contractor side are cutting tons of corners and we are starting to see the fallout from that here. I think failure to communicate with ATC (e.g. taking off without permission) is a massive concern. If a traditional pilot did that then they would soon have their licence ripped up, not sure why drone pilots aren't held to the same standard.
- Avshalom 14y ago
  Mercenary groups like Academi (nee XE (nee Blackwater)) count as contractors.
- greyboy 14y ago
  It's common to give contractors a bad wrap, and certainly some deserve it. But, many DOD contractors are ex-military persons, either retired, discharged, physically unable to remain in service, or simply choose to work "on the other side of the desk" (as they say). Almost all the contractors I know were in the Air Force, Marines, Navy or Army for some period time. (It's usually very helpful as they still have the necessary clearances and don't need to be sponsored to get one.)
  - Evbn 14y ago
    Yeah it's not an operational failure to use contractors, but it is an accountability failure, because both sides of the table use the contracting relationship as an excuse to break the law and commit treason, as there is no legal culture in place to handle these "organizational" crimes vs traditional mutiny or war crimes committed by a unit in the hierarchical military.
NelsonMinar 14y ago
You won't see unmanned drones flying at US civilian airports. Nor, in most cases, anywhere in US civilian airspace. Drones aren't allowed here because we don't know how to safely integrate them into civilian airspace. There's a controversial effort inside FAA to come up with rules for UAVs and it's going very slowly and carefully. The arrogance of us flying drones in Djibouti and Seychelles civilian airspace when we won't let them in our own airspace is pretty amazing.
- Evbn 14y ago
  I don't know about Djibouti or Seychelles, but depending on their air traffic level, it may be similar to certain testing areas in the US, less dense and intense than something like LAX. Not saying the drone operators are playing fair and safe, just making room.
- SEJeff 14y ago
  The Shadow 200 TUAV has been flying in AZ near and all around Ft Huachuca, AZ since before 2001, when I was flying them there. It has an "experimental" FAA designation and we would frequently hold for civi aircraft. Look it up if you don't believe me :)
pilsetnieks 14y ago
The mention of software bugs seems worrying - I mean, isn't avionics supposed to be second only to NASA in code quality and being bug-free? Or do they just not care that much since there's not a pilot involved?
Dronator 14y ago
Where do drone OPERATORs get their pilots license...? Radio shack. lol

103 points by stfu 14y ago

AYBABTME 14y ago

"Please sign in to access this article and other exclusive content." That's not very convenient.

eli 14y ago
Strange, I didn't get that message. Try this http://viewtext.org/article?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fworld%2Fnational-security%2Fdrone-crashes-mount-at-civilian-airports-overseas%2F2012%2F11%2F30%2Fe75a13e4-3a39-11e2-83f9-fb7ac9b29fad_story.html http://viewtext.org/article?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonp...

ivany 14y ago

A bit off-topic but per the NYU/Stanford "Living Under Drones" report[1], the use of military drones for "fighting terrorism" has been frightening, to say the least. It turns out that only about 2% of the people killed in Pakistan by drones are high-level terrorists, and collateral damage including women and children is a extremely common. Furthermore, "double-strike" standard operating procedure specifically targets first responders by hitting a target a second time minutes or hours after the first strike. The whole thing is pretty sick and based on the accounts in the report, drone activities terrorize the population as simply being near a terrorist (or someone profiled as a terrorist based on their behavior) can get you killed. [1] http://livingunderdrones.org/ http://livingunderdrones.org/

Evbn 14y ago
This is exactly the sort of misbehavior that the IDF explicitly claims to avoid, to minimize collateral damage. IDF may not be following its own claimed standards either, but everyone should.

Tyrant505 14y ago

Obviously not a gamer..

smoyer 14y ago
But what about the shorts and tee-shirt? Everyone knows you can only fly a drone properly if dressed in a complete flight-suit.
- barrkel 14y ago
  The BBC used to have a policy of requiring evening dress for their radio announcers. There's something to be said for an inflexible and rules-bound mindset when operating critical machinery - making sure checklists are followed, etc. More fluid application of smarts may be necessary in an emergency, but not as a matter of routine.
- tangue 14y ago
  I was thinking the same thing but then I asked myself if the guys killing people at the other side of the world were dressed like that, and feel ill at ease.
  - techdmn 14y ago
    Is it the killing that bothers, or the casual dress?
    - barrkel 14y ago
      It's the combination that's problematic. It suggests that the killing is done lightly and carelessly, and it cheapens human lives.
      - mythealias 14y ago
        And yet that is the fact. The worth of human life is decided but what's in the pocket. The sooner you accept it the easier it will be.

cstross 14y ago

The most worrying angles seem to be human factors issues: the lack of coordination between drone crews and airport ATC, and the apparent deficits in training/qualification of pilots. "Similar accident rate to F-16s at a similar time in their development" doesn't fill me with joy either; combat aircraft can expect a crash or major incident on the order of once per 10,000 flying hours, whereas for airliners the equivalent rate is roughly one crash or major incident per 10^7 hours -- three orders of magnitude safer! It's like comparing over-powered motorbikes in the hands of reckless teenagers with school buses. The original justification for deploying drones over manned aircraft was that the drones could be built cheaper -- no expensive aircrew to risk in event of a crash, so less need for complex safety systems and multiple redundancy. Now put this cheap, cheerful, and not terribly safe device in the hands of a lowest-bidder contractor's hired help, who may or may not have been hired because they were cheap rather than able to do the job ... And now imagine the bikers in this metaphor are riding on a stretch of road used by buses, are ignoring the traffic signs, and that a crash will kill everyone involved (including the full bus), and you've got a grasp of the picture we're looking at here.

sebcat 14y ago
They should make the UI user safe. If it goes point-and-click, they could hire almost anyone to operate it. Easier said than done, I guess.
- sami36 14y ago
  In civilian airports equipped with ILS navigation support. Modern commercial aircraft can literally land themselves without human input. As long as runways are properly equipped with the right beacons, automatic landings of drones are not far fetched.
  - dalke 14y ago
    Did you all read some of the problems which arose? In one crash report, the drone took "off without permission from the control tower". In another, "an armed Predator suffered an electrical malfunction that sent it into a death spiral." A third was partially due to a "melted throttle part." A forth started when "[t]wo minutes after takeoff, the engine failed." Another concern is that air control gives "priority to passenger planes and order[s] drone pilots to keep their aircraft circling overhead even when they are dangerously low on fuel." Yes, some of the problems were human error. But from the statistics given, UI errors and improved navigation support give at most a 30% reduction in the crash rates. While what's needed is several orders of magnitude improvement to make it match the commercial crash rates.

arjn 14y ago

This is very strange. Why are military "contractors" flying these things ? Should they be trained military personnel piloting the drones ?

UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
I am somewhat reading between the lines but from the article it sounds like military contractors handle the local take-off and landing then hand over the drone to the military for the actual combat missions. I'm guessing they are using microwave communication locally for a more reliable link (than satellite). Since you need twitch responsive communications for take-off and landing. Once the drone is in the air if it loses communications with the ground then it just either flies it predetermined route or at least flies straight and level until communications are re-established. The problem here seems to be that people both on the military side and contractor side are cutting tons of corners and we are starting to see the fallout from that here. I think failure to communicate with ATC (e.g. taking off without permission) is a massive concern. If a traditional pilot did that then they would soon have their licence ripped up, not sure why drone pilots aren't held to the same standard.
Avshalom 14y ago
Mercenary groups like Academi (nee XE (nee Blackwater)) count as contractors.
greyboy 14y ago
It's common to give contractors a bad wrap, and certainly some deserve it. But, many DOD contractors are ex-military persons, either retired, discharged, physically unable to remain in service, or simply choose to work "on the other side of the desk" (as they say). Almost all the contractors I know were in the Air Force, Marines, Navy or Army for some period time. (It's usually very helpful as they still have the necessary clearances and don't need to be sponsored to get one.)
- Evbn 14y ago
  Yeah it's not an operational failure to use contractors, but it is an accountability failure, because both sides of the table use the contracting relationship as an excuse to break the law and commit treason, as there is no legal culture in place to handle these "organizational" crimes vs traditional mutiny or war crimes committed by a unit in the hierarchical military.

NelsonMinar 14y ago

You won't see unmanned drones flying at US civilian airports. Nor, in most cases, anywhere in US civilian airspace. Drones aren't allowed here because we don't know how to safely integrate them into civilian airspace. There's a controversial effort inside FAA to come up with rules for UAVs and it's going very slowly and carefully. The arrogance of us flying drones in Djibouti and Seychelles civilian airspace when we won't let them in our own airspace is pretty amazing.

Evbn 14y ago
I don't know about Djibouti or Seychelles, but depending on their air traffic level, it may be similar to certain testing areas in the US, less dense and intense than something like LAX. Not saying the drone operators are playing fair and safe, just making room.
SEJeff 14y ago
The Shadow 200 TUAV has been flying in AZ near and all around Ft Huachuca, AZ since before 2001, when I was flying them there. It has an "experimental" FAA designation and we would frequently hold for civi aircraft. Look it up if you don't believe me :)

pilsetnieks 14y ago

The mention of software bugs seems worrying - I mean, isn't avionics supposed to be second only to NASA in code quality and being bug-free? Or do they just not care that much since there's not a pilot involved?

Dronator 14y ago

Where do drone OPERATORs get their pilots license...? Radio shack. lol