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The Case for Drinking as Much Coffee as You Like
- alexpopescu 14y agoPlus two older HN threads: 1. Ask HN: How much coffee do you drink?: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4606007 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4606007 2. Ask HN: Coffee Drinkers, How Do You Brew? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4408221 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4408221
- AceJohnny2 14y agoLike many, I started drinking coffee partway through college and continued enjoying it when I started working. However I started noticing it triggered some pretty bad anxiety and muscular tension and made me extremely moody. I stopped for a while. I finally found some excellent decaf (Ethiopian Sidamo at Zombie Runner [1] in Palo Alto), so I can continue indulging the habit. [1] http://www.zombierunner.com/store/categories/cafe_zombie/coffee_beans/product1251.html http://www.zombierunner.com/store/categories/cafe_zombie/cof...
- shardling 14y agoThis was exactly my experience. It seemed to take a few months for my body to transition off caffeine. I recommend switching to tea for the first couple of weeks, since that'll at least prevent the terrible headaches. I definitely feel healthier for quitting the habit, though I still miss "real" coffee sometimes. :(
- alexkus 14y agoIt was 'just' a solid week of bad sleep, horrendous headaches and night sweats for me when stopping. Frightening to think of those withdrawl symptoms for such a seemingly innocuous drug.
- thesz 14y agoI once did an experiment and went completely caffeine free. First three days I was sleepy, then I recovered to exactly the same productivity level. Then I decided to make me more productive and drunk a 0.25 Adrenaline Rush. My symptoms were nothing less than caffeine overdose. I wanted to work but was unable to do anything because of total lack of focus. So I wanted to sleep and unable to sleep because fo hyperalertness. Then I wanted to work because I cannot sleep, etc. The cycle lasted for six hours at least and it was very unpleasant. I was even unable to read! Right now I take a long walk after work if I want to be really productive next day.
- swah 14y agoI'm going the last 5 days w/o coffee and felt no difference at all regarding anxiety, focus, sleep & headaches. I normally drank 3 cups in the morning (200ml each I'd guess) and 3 after lunch.
- aaronblohowiak 14y agoCaffeine sensitivity is highly variable between individuals. I am both sensitive and a slow metabolizer; if I had 6 cups of coffee in one day my guts would be churning and I would not be able to get anything done.
- sopooneo 14y agoI second on the "moody". I've never seen it written about, but, even apart from alertness, caffeine makes me extremely emotional. Bouncing happy to sad in ways I otherwise wouldn't. And at high levels, I blaze with inspiration... with ideas that all turn out to be garbage on later review.
- cma 14y agoTry combining it with L-Theanine supplements.. Completely removes the tension effects for me.
- laowan 14y agoCoffee just makes me need to shit a lot more.
- psweber 14y agoThis is rarely (if ever) mentioned in all these articles claiming that coffee is so beneficial. I drink a fair amount of coffee and try to cut back frequently because of this issue. It isn't just that coffee makes me crap more, it degrades the...qualify of the crap. Am I alone here? Seems like it can't be good for me.
- jsolson 14y agoI agree with you that the frequency of my shitting goes up while the quality goes down, although I was amused when I came across this line: > That same high dosage is also effective in fighting against colorectal cancer I do have to wonder if it's not a primary effect of anything in the coffee, but rather a byproduct of the secondary effects.
- 2mur 14y agoFrankly, as someone who probably doesn't eat as much fiber as I should and who sits far too long all day, this is just another added benefit. Gotta keep moving.
- raamdev 14y agoI've actually found that one cup of a specific type of coffee, namely instant coffee, drank immediately after breakfast, nearly always guarantees a bowel movement. I've actually found it to be extremely useful part of my daily routine and when I need to break the routine for whatever reason (I live nomadically so my routines are always changing), my whole day is usually a lot more uncomfortable (i.e., my digestive system and bowls feel slower). I still haven't identified how all this works, but it's an interesting anecdote.
- wamatt 14y ago>I still haven't identified how all this works, but it's an interesting anecdote Coffee acts as a laxative. Interestingly, this effect is observed in decaf as well. Source: Boekema PJ, Samsom M, et al. Coffee and gastrointestinal function: facts and fiction. A review. Scand J Gastroenterol Suppl. 1999;230:35-9. PMID 10499460 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10499460 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10499460
- cheald 14y agoThis makes me happy, because boy howdy do I go through a lot of it. It's worth noting, though, that what you put into coffee may not be so good for you. I sat down and did the math and realized that I was taking in almost 1500 calories/day in milk and sugar that I put in my coffee. I've since switched to drinking it black or with just a bit of skim milk (to cool it - the first cup out of a french press is scalding!), and have lost a significant amount of weight just from that change alone.
- jmmcd 14y agoYeah that's an important point, also mentioned in the article. It also mentions coffee that is designed to smell like "seasonal celebrations", ie pumpkin spiced latte and similar. We have to distinguish between coffee and dessert-in-disguise.
- reddit_clone 14y ago>dessert-in-disguise. Double espresso with a dash of Baileys.. mmm..
- engtech 14y agooff-topic, but it's almost December. I just came across a recipe for freezing coffee in ice cube trays, and then putting it in with Baileys and vanilla vodka. This sounds like a winner for the annual "It's a Wonderful Life" every time they say George Bailey drinking game.
- pyre 14y agoWell, all of those flavored lattes are done with sugary syrup. You can still flavor your coffee without sugar. Things like raw cocoa powder, cinnamon, nutmeg, ginger, etc. (maybe vanilla extract too, but I'm not sure how much sugar that might have on its own)
- dubya 14y agoCardamom in coffee is quite tasty. It gives some of the flavor of Turkish coffee without all the viscosity.
- rpm4321 14y agoAnecdotally, this seems like pretty reckless advice, and I'm a caffeine junkie. Don't get me wrong, it's clearly not crystal meth, but Caffeine overdoses are real and can be dangerous, especially in a situation where you are drinking a boatload of coffee. I'm sure I'm not the only person on this board that has had some minor heart palpitations during an all-nighter after one too many coffees or Coke Zeros.
- nickkthequick 14y agoCaffeine overdoses are quite difficult to actually achieve[1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Caffeine_intoxication http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Caffeine_intoxication
- rpm4321 14y agoYep, I've read all about clinical definitions of caffeine intoxication, and its relative rarity isolated from any other factors. I guess I was a little sloppy in labeling what I'm talking about a "caffeine overdose", although I think what I described happening to me (heart palpatations, dizziness) probably happens much more often than physicians are aware of, and could be classified as a minor caffeine overdose. Most people logically conclude they've had too much coffee and too little sleep, and just drink some water and go to bed like I did. They don't go to the hospital over it. What I'm really saying is that people who consume massive amounts of coffee are usually trying to compensate for exhaustion or sleep deprivation. In fact, there's sort of a feedback loop, where massive amounts of caffeine make restful sleep much more difficult, which then leads to more caffeine consumption and possibly to a downward spiral in health. Studies have shown that a perfectly healthy person lacking in sleep is in sort of a pre-diabetic state already, so when you pile on massive amounts of stimulants at the same time, it's clearly bad for the heart. It won't lead to you being declared DOA of a caffeine overdose, but it could exacerbate heart disease, or help its onset, or even cause a heart attack. Don't get me wrong, as I mentioned I'm a huge caffeine addict. I drink Coke Zero by the gallon. However, the picture the author is painting that massive ingestion of caffeine is consequence free is simply not accurate, and in fact dangerous.
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- geoka9 14y agoOr for Pete's sake... What I tell patients is, if you like coffee, go ahead and drink as much as you want and can," says Dr. Peter Martin, director of the Institute for Coffee Studies at Vanderbilt University. He's even developed a metric for monitoring your dosage: If you are having trouble sleeping, cut back on your last cup of the day. From there, he says, "If you drink that much, it's not going to do you any harm, and it might actually help you. A lot. What else can you expect from an "institute" with a name like this? And, surely enough, a little more digging brings this: Nashville's Vanderbilt University is to establish an Institute for Coffee Studies this fall, funded by $6 million from the Brazilian Coffee Association and other coffee-growing organizations. http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v5/n3/full/nm0399_252b.html http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v5/n3/full/nm0399_252b.html
- gyardley 14y agoThat was a rather selective quote, given that the same article says this just a paragraph down: Institute director, Peter Martin, stresses that his research group wants to maintain "arms length" from the coffee industry for ethical reasons. "We are setting up a foundation to oversee the funds which will be administered by independent scientific directors to ensure that there isn't even an appearance of conflict of interest," he insists. In addition, the original article described a wide variety of studies done by many different institutions. I suppose it's possible that they're all just "studies" conducted by people in the pay of the nefarious coffee lobby, but we probably shouldn't start resorting to conspiracy theories without a little evidence.
- patmcguire 14y agoFor the institute you have a situation where there's an institution regarded as objective and credible and someone who has a vested interest in the outcome donating money. This happens all the time. There's some form of regulatory capture in any industry, even if the regulation is something like "a general consensus among certain people that everyone in the industry respects that something is or isn't ok." Like in government, sometimes there is quid pro quo and sometimes there isn't, but I've never heard anyone come out and say, "Whoops, you caught us! We're totally taking money to sway our opinion!" The breadth of studies makes this look pretty legit. I just don't put much faith in obligatory denials.
- alexkus 14y agoI can't put in to words how much better I feel, and sleep, since switching to decaffeinated[1] coffee. 1. You still get some caffeine; decaf is about 5% of the caffeine of normal coffee.
- wyclif 14y ago...or switch to high-quality green tea, which has trace amounts of caffeine— enough to maintain sufficient alertness in the morning, I've found.
- beagle3 14y agoAccording to Dave Asprey (self-described biohacker), you should drink good coffee but never drink decaf: http://www.bulletproofexec.com/coffee-5-reasons-you-can-perform-better-10-ways-to-live-longer/ http://www.bulletproofexec.com/coffee-5-reasons-you-can-perf... If you are adventurous, you should try his "bulletproof coffee" (high quality coffee with butter, but there's more to it - you can find details on his website). Butter is also good for you. Really.
- JosephHatfield 14y agoYes, butter (I think he recommends two thirds of a stick!) and something called MCT oil.
- underdown 14y agoDave Asprey is certainly a quack but there is some evidence butter may be pretty good for you. Look up butyrate - which milk fat helps produce in your body (if you have healthy gut flora).
- mistercow 14y agoI'm not saying this to be mean, but I think it's important to point out that Dave Asprey is a quack, and his "Upgraded Coffee" is snake oil. Asprey is happy to cherry-pick studies to support his products, but the fact is that there is simply no good reason to believe that mycotoxin levels in ordinary coffee are high enough to have any measurable effect on humans who drink it. (And if you look carefully at his citations, you'll notice that he does not bridge that crucial gap between "mycotoxins are bad for you" and "my coffee has lower mycotoxin content"). This guy's combination of scientific literacy and alarmingly poor reasoning really makes me nauseous, because I can't simply write it off as mere incompetence. For instance, look at this infographic: http://www.bulletproofexec.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Butter-Infographic1.jpg http://www.bulletproofexec.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Bu... . Specifically, look at the part comparing 1910 and 2000. That's not just a case of spurious correlation. It's like something I would make up as a wacky example of spurious correlation.
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- ryguytilidie 14y agoYeah I can't imagine being permanently high on a drug being bad for you...this study funded by the Institute for Coffee Studies is probably right, everyone should take more of this drug!
- chimpinee 14y agoI agree that being permanently high (and thus being out of touch with the body and with emotions) is unhealthy -- however, perhaps some drugs are less unhealthy than others. [from the article] >That there were no major differences in risk reduction between regular and decaf coffee suggests there's something in it, aside from its caffeine content, that could be contributing to these observed benefits It could merely be that people who drink coffee eat less food, and that food is a less healthy drug
- ryguytilidie 14y agoSo your argument is that these people are actually having a more healthy diet by eating less food and drinking more drugs? Did you think out this point before making it?
- aptwebapps 14y agoThat doesn't seem impossible. What's the baseline for the food and the coffee? A lot of people's diet these days would be healthier simply by eating less of everything.
- justatdotin 14y ago"and thus ..." : I actually sometimes find that being high puts me more in touch with body and emotions .. shrug
- chimpinee 14y agoOh I agree. In vino veritas. But 'permanently high' is different: it isn't really a high at all.
- leoh 14y agoMisguided. For some people, Coffee is probably okay. But I have noticed that after drinking it for a few days, I suffer from general exhaustion, and I don't think I am alone. There is also some research that in some individuals, coffee can affect adrenal function. I think the key is to be mindful about usage of any substance; with respect to our person and how we feel, we can sometimes be the best scientist.
- frankus 14y agoThe biggest issue for me is that I respond very negatively to caffeine withdrawal (I get extremely cranky and it often triggers a migraine). What keeps me from drinking more is that I don't want a missed dose to ruin my whole day. Second biggest issue is that I tend to get hypoglycemic an hour or so later if I don't have a carby snack at the same time. A cup a day (with a cup of tea in the morning) is the best balance of enjoyment versus drawbacks that I've found. If I want more I brew up a cup of decaf. Also I find an Aeropress is easy enough to be convenient but not so easy as to trigger overconsumption (Cf. K-Cup). It doesn't hurt that it makes a great cup of coffee.
- aptwebapps 14y agoYeah, I get a headache when miss my dose. I have a variable schedule which causes that to happen about every other week so I've stopped drinking tea or coffee on any kind of regular basis. Now I only drink some when I need it and usually not more than once a week. When you don't drink it all the time even a small cup goes a really long way, at least for me.
- saryant 14y agoI'm the same. I once tried going cold turkey from four cups a day and my headaches were so bad I was useless for three days before I gave up and started drinking coffee again. Today I'm still at about four cups a day. Similar to you, I use a Chemex instead of an automatic machine to slow my consumption.
- sk5t 14y agoI went cold turkey a couple months ago because I didn't like the afternoon headache and general feeling of uselessness that I'd suffer on days when it wasn't practical to get coffee. Nor was it pleasant to live with the very fact of a chemical dependency... I'm not quite as sharp in the morning on just chamomile, but afternoons and sleep are much improved.
- bitteralmond 14y agoRule of thumb: Never trust a study funded by someone who would benefit directly from a certain result. It doesn't matter how sound the science seems.
- eavc 14y agoThis is just stupid. Caffeine should either be consumed in moderation or not at all.
- carbocation 14y agoEpidemiologically, coffee consumption (even up to >6 cups/day) does not appear to be associated with risk for heart attack.[1] This is a large cohort study (128,000 people). Obvious limitations include the fact that the coffee intake assessment was via a questionnaire administered every few years, and that it's a cohort study and not an RCT. I understand that there may in fact be organs in the human body that are not the heart, but when I hear people talking about caffeine risk, they generally seem to be referring to heart disease, so that's the kind of article I pubmed'ed. 1) http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/113/17/2045.long http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/113/17/2045.long
- rdtsc 14y ago> says Dr. Peter Martin, director of the Institute for Coffee Studies at Vanderbilt University. The director who is paid to study coffee says that coffee is good for you. I am shocked, shocked, I tell you!
- tomkin 14y agoI'm gonna call BS on this. Hiatal hernia's are frequently associated with over consumption of coffee, which has other effects on the heart, esophageal and stomach lining. Anecdotally, an alarming amount of heavy coffee drinkers also seem to be taking maintenance prescription antacids, Nexium, etc. None of which are intended for long term use as they deplete Vitamin B12, among other issues.
- jacques_chester 14y agoMy hobby is weightlifing. About 3 weeks out from a competition I systematically wean myself off caffeine by substituting more and more decaf into my regular coffee until I'm purely on decaf. Why? Two reasons. The first is tolerance. Caffeine tolerance reduces the sense of freshness, alertness, energy etc that coffee gives for any given dose. But tolerance isn't a linear function for all the effects of caffeeine. The practical upshot is that, on competition day, I wind up needing more caffeine than usual to give me the extra pep to really perform well. But if I'm already tolerant to caffeine, my "pep" dose will be high enough to cause sweaty hands and to degrade my motor control -- in my case my grip becomes weaker and my pulls are not as crisp. Olympic-style weightlifting is a precision sport; I can't afford that. Whereas, if I've weaned myself off caffeine over the preceding weeks, there's been adenosine re-regulation and I've become more sensitised to it again. So I can get all the pep and energy to push through a competition (it can be very draining with all the warm up lifts) without the sweaty hands or weaker grip or less accurate pulling technique. The second reason to wean myself is that going cold turkey is absolute hell. One rule I observe these days is that I don't consume caffeine after 1pm. I can't get to sleep otherwise. In practice this means two cups a day: one when I wake up, one before or during lunch. Even after the noticeable effects of caffeine have faded, it has enough of a half life to make it difficult to fall asleep in a timely fashion. Then you get stuck in the caffeine-sleeplessness-caffeine feedback loop. Worth avoiding.