4 ms·

Be careful with these apps. The permissions they ask for are quite expansive.

sowbug 4mo ago
You're correct, but there's a good reason: they need to draw over other apps to do what they do. So it's not necessarily nefarious. But it is an excellent reason to build the functionality into the OS. (The reason the permission is so dangerous is they can trick you into pressing the wrong button by relabeling dangerous text with innocuous text.)
- advisedwang 4mo ago
  The presence of a good reason is exactly why you have to be so careful. Creating an app with a legitimate reason to request permission, only to also abuse it, is a great strategy for an attacker.
Cider9986 4mo ago
Absolutely, which is why I really appreciate the network permission on GrapheneOS. It makes me more comfortable to allow other permissions knowing no data can be exfiltrated.
- Groxx 4mo ago
  It's wild to me that "internet access" is not revokable or even displayed in the Play Store in stock Android. It's such a huge security and privacy concern, even if most apps semi-legitimately need it. Or, it would be wild, if it weren't fairly obvious that this is just Google protecting their mobile ad revenue.
  - AndriyKunitsyn 4mo ago
    There's basically zero apps without some sort of analytics nowadays.
    - ncallaway 4mo ago
      That's fine. The OS should still let me turn off all outbound network connections for an app. Apps that are solely relying on analytics still tend to function when the analytics are unreachable.
    - Groxx 4mo ago
      More than half of the ones I have installed have no internet access. Most because they don't have the permission (thanks, F-Droid!) and the rest because I've rejected that permission (thanks, GrapheneOS!)
    - lucb1e 4mo ago
      Not in all app repositories. This isn't so common among open source software as it is in the commercial/adware ones you find very prominently in Google's curated collection
    - MiddleEndian 4mo ago
      Sounds like a concern for app devs but something that shouldn't be a concern for users (because they should be able to turn it off)
  - subscribed 4mo ago
    Well, Google is the advertisement company.
- nopakos 4mo ago
  Network permissions could be used to avoid ads on Android. The horror!
  - Cider9986 4mo ago
    And it even fails in the way that apps will see no-wifi and believe the entire device is offline. That way they can't detect it and mess around without harming regular offline users.
    - a022311 4mo ago
      Depends. One of the reasons I stopped using Spotify was because its offline mode refused to work when my device had all radios off (who even thought of this?). Once I turned on Wi-Fi, even without connecting to a network, it would load immediately.
      - Cider9986 4mo ago
        Try Metrolist it's free, fantastic and supports offline caching. https://metrolist.meowery.eu/ https://metrolist.meowery.eu/
- Dibby053 4mo ago
  >no data can be exfiltrated. Well, that depends on the other apps you have installed. Unless things have changed in newer versions, apps with no networking can still do IPC, so any app can for example use Cronet to make network requests via Google Play Services, regardless of the toggle, as long as sandboxed Google Play Services has network permission.
  - Cider9986 4mo ago
    Agreed.
  - subscribed 4mo ago
    Yep, nothing has changed yet. GOS project still has this in the road map, but as of now Inter Profile Sharing still works.
  - gf000 4mo ago
    Good point and thanks for the heads up. Mostly asking it as a question, given that graphene runs Google play services (optionally) as a normal, sandboxed service with no special permissions might help a bit, but I guess unless you disable networking for every other service installed, this is sort of impossible to plug 100%? IPC can be quite the security hole.
    - lucb1e 4mo ago
      Only if the other services provide a network proxy right? You'd need to find an exploit in the app otherwise. Edit: although, I just remembered that it's actually as simple as sending "open this URL" intents to the Android equivalent of sensible-browser, which everyone will have installed. That does rely on users not understanding or caring about what's happening or it only works for the first user
      - gf000 4mo ago
        Yeah, there are endless holes unfortunately with IPC. It has been hardened by more recent android versions https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/manifest/queries-element https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/manifest/queries-... but even something like "share via Chat app" can be used to leak information, e.g. it will have the link preview loaded".
- lucb1e 4mo ago
  Any self-respecting OS has packet filtering, this isn't unique to or surprising from GrapheneOS. On my Samsung/OneUI I use AFWall+ which sets iptables rules iirc
- a022311 4mo ago
  Funnily enough, the Huawei P30 Pro I was using previously (back when these things could run Android with GMS) had network toggles for all apps. They weren't in the permissions menu, as they were meant for data saving purposes but you had the additional granularity of choosing if an app could access mobile data or Wi-Fi separately. That solved the problem of ads in games much better than DNS :D
ascorbic 4mo ago
KineStop at least claims to collect no user data, and has no ads: https://play.google.com/store/apps/datasafety?id=com.urbandroid.kinestop https://play.google.com/store/apps/datasafety?id=com.urbandr...

You're correct, but there's a good reason: they need to draw over other apps to do what they do. So it's not necessarily nefarious. But it is an excellent reason to build the functionality into the OS. (The reason the permission is so dangerous is they can trick you into pressing the wrong button by relabeling dangerous text with innocuous text.)

advisedwang 4mo ago
The presence of a good reason is exactly why you have to be so careful. Creating an app with a legitimate reason to request permission, only to also abuse it, is a great strategy for an attacker.

Cider9986 4mo ago

Absolutely, which is why I really appreciate the network permission on GrapheneOS. It makes me more comfortable to allow other permissions knowing no data can be exfiltrated.

Groxx 4mo ago
It's wild to me that "internet access" is not revokable or even displayed in the Play Store in stock Android. It's such a huge security and privacy concern, even if most apps semi-legitimately need it. Or, it would be wild, if it weren't fairly obvious that this is just Google protecting their mobile ad revenue.
- AndriyKunitsyn 4mo ago
  There's basically zero apps without some sort of analytics nowadays.
  - ncallaway 4mo ago
    That's fine. The OS should still let me turn off all outbound network connections for an app. Apps that are solely relying on analytics still tend to function when the analytics are unreachable.
  - Groxx 4mo ago
    More than half of the ones I have installed have no internet access. Most because they don't have the permission (thanks, F-Droid!) and the rest because I've rejected that permission (thanks, GrapheneOS!)
  - lucb1e 4mo ago
    Not in all app repositories. This isn't so common among open source software as it is in the commercial/adware ones you find very prominently in Google's curated collection
  - MiddleEndian 4mo ago
    Sounds like a concern for app devs but something that shouldn't be a concern for users (because they should be able to turn it off)
- subscribed 4mo ago
  Well, Google is the advertisement company.
nopakos 4mo ago
Network permissions could be used to avoid ads on Android. The horror!
- Cider9986 4mo ago
  And it even fails in the way that apps will see no-wifi and believe the entire device is offline. That way they can't detect it and mess around without harming regular offline users.
  - a022311 4mo ago
    Depends. One of the reasons I stopped using Spotify was because its offline mode refused to work when my device had all radios off (who even thought of this?). Once I turned on Wi-Fi, even without connecting to a network, it would load immediately.
    - Cider9986 4mo ago
      Try Metrolist it's free, fantastic and supports offline caching. https://metrolist.meowery.eu/ https://metrolist.meowery.eu/
Dibby053 4mo ago
>no data can be exfiltrated. Well, that depends on the other apps you have installed. Unless things have changed in newer versions, apps with no networking can still do IPC, so any app can for example use Cronet to make network requests via Google Play Services, regardless of the toggle, as long as sandboxed Google Play Services has network permission.
- Cider9986 4mo ago
  Agreed.
- subscribed 4mo ago
  Yep, nothing has changed yet. GOS project still has this in the road map, but as of now Inter Profile Sharing still works.
- gf000 4mo ago
  Good point and thanks for the heads up. Mostly asking it as a question, given that graphene runs Google play services (optionally) as a normal, sandboxed service with no special permissions might help a bit, but I guess unless you disable networking for every other service installed, this is sort of impossible to plug 100%? IPC can be quite the security hole.
  - lucb1e 4mo ago
    Only if the other services provide a network proxy right? You'd need to find an exploit in the app otherwise. Edit: although, I just remembered that it's actually as simple as sending "open this URL" intents to the Android equivalent of sensible-browser, which everyone will have installed. That does rely on users not understanding or caring about what's happening or it only works for the first user
    - gf000 4mo ago
      Yeah, there are endless holes unfortunately with IPC. It has been hardened by more recent android versions https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/manifest/queries-element https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/manifest/queries-... but even something like "share via Chat app" can be used to leak information, e.g. it will have the link preview loaded".
lucb1e 4mo ago
Any self-respecting OS has packet filtering, this isn't unique to or surprising from GrapheneOS. On my Samsung/OneUI I use AFWall+ which sets iptables rules iirc
a022311 4mo ago
Funnily enough, the Huawei P30 Pro I was using previously (back when these things could run Android with GMS) had network toggles for all apps. They weren't in the permissions menu, as they were meant for data saving purposes but you had the additional granularity of choosing if an app could access mobile data or Wi-Fi separately. That solved the problem of ads in games much better than DNS :D

ascorbic 4mo ago

KineStop at least claims to collect no user data, and has no ads: https://play.google.com/store/apps/datasafety?id=com.urbandroid.kinestop https://play.google.com/store/apps/datasafety?id=com.urbandr...