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Were the operators of all the other dozens of routers, switches and exchange point nodes that the files passed through also arrested? Or did the police selectiv

Were the operators of all the other dozens of routers, switches and exchange point nodes that the files passed through also arrested? Or did the police selectively choose to only arrest the operator of one particular node that just happens to also be used for preserving privacy?

anigbrowl 14y ago
just happens to also be used for preserving privacy As if there were no correlation between that and the use of the service for distributing CP. I'm sorry, but I find it hard to get exercised about the invasion of privacy aspect, considering much greater invasions of both person and privacy that take place in the manufacture of child pornography. Liberty does not subsist in the oppression of others.
- mistercow 14y ago
  It's not possible to create a system which protects the anonymity and privacy of users with integrity, but not of criminals. The cost of a free society is that sometimes people will do bad things and get away with it. As regards Tor, it's extremely debatable that its existence has any impact at all on the distribution of child pornography. If you don't care about hurting people, there are way more effective ways to protect your anonymity than Tor. In addition, Tor is an incredibly useful tool for fighting corruption in countries where online privacy would otherwise be non-existent. So on the one hand it's a tool that gives anonymity to a group that already has it. On the other hand, it's a tool that aids in reducing human rights abuses across the board, including human trafficking.
  - Hannan 14y ago
    >> It's not possible to create a system which protects the and privacy of users with integrity, but not of criminals. Do you have more information or references on this? It seems very intuitively correct to me, but I was hoping someone much more intelligent than me has actually formalized somehow.
    - mistercow 14y ago
      I'm not sure there's any way to formalize it really. It follows pretty much in one step from the axiom "your computer doesn't know if you're scum or not". And if we had the strong AI needed to change that, we'd just be letting a computer invade our privacy and judge us instead of a human or government.
      - tzs 14y ago
        Every time the AI checks and finds out that you are not a scum, its memory could be wiped so that it retains no knowledge of anything private it learned about you during the check.
        mistercow 14y ago
        That only solves one minor issue with loss of privacy.
    - erjiang 14y ago
      Actually, just consider that illegality is defined by other humans, often arbitrarily. A system that protects the privacy of users who have "American" free speech is simultaneously a system that protects "criminals" who violate blasphemy, royal-insult, obscenity, or any number of other laws in other countries.
- kevinskii 14y ago
  The sentiments of the parent comment may differ from yours (and mine), but they are intelligently stated and do not deserve to be downvoted.
pwniekins 14y ago
These are the nonsensical laws that result from "illegal data".
- duaneb 14y ago
  Well, the alternative is... legal child porn? Not saying I like the laws. But i don't know of an alternative to holding people accountable for data.
  - forkrulassail 14y ago
    Related article: http://falkvinge.net/2012/09/07/three-reasons-child-porn-must-be-re-legalized-in-the-coming-decade/ http://falkvinge.net/2012/09/07/three-reasons-child-porn-mus... The concept is also touched on in the Assange book.
  - joshAg 14y ago
    Criminalize the purposeful making of such data, but legalize possession of all data. think of it like this: it is legal to posses or make video footage of a murder. but it is still illegal to kill someone for the purpose of making such a film.
    - fatbird 14y ago
      This proposal seems especially weak given the ease of anonymously creating such material and 'seeding' it. The point of criminalizing the data is to suppress the market for it in order to reduce the incentives to create it.
      - tjoff 14y ago
        While that is a noble goal, does it work? And is it really worth the sacrifice? Yes, it is awkward to compare something as awful with something as intangible as anonymity. But if you don't draw the line somewhere you will not be able to have a functional society - in which case we might as well be as humane as humanly possible and make good use of our nukes and make sure that there will be no human suffering in the future to worry about.
cynicalkane 14y ago
What the heck? The point of Tor is nobody but the exit node can be easily identified. Are you demanding the authorities have the resources to completely crack Tor before they can arrest anyone? That is probably not the best way to protest this action.
- polshaw 14y ago
  No, he is saying that the exit node's role is little different from that of any other node that the traffic is routed through (including) after the request hits the exit node-- eg the exit node operator's ISP.
  - danielweber 14y ago
    Can anyone just decide to become a common carrier?
    - stfu 14y ago
      Would be an interesting idea to juggle different constructs in order to preserve Tor exit nodes. Maybe they could join together to form some kind of legal entity that acts as the owner of the hardware acting as the node. Would something like this be enough to claim that he only rented out the specific tor machine, therefore not getting the rest of his hardware raided?
      - danielweber 14y ago
        It would also be interesting to see if the operators of the Tor network want to subject themselves to the legal requirements of being a common carrier.

anigbrowl 14y ago

just happens to also be used for preserving privacy As if there were no correlation between that and the use of the service for distributing CP. I'm sorry, but I find it hard to get exercised about the invasion of privacy aspect, considering much greater invasions of both person and privacy that take place in the manufacture of child pornography. Liberty does not subsist in the oppression of others.

mistercow 14y ago
It's not possible to create a system which protects the anonymity and privacy of users with integrity, but not of criminals. The cost of a free society is that sometimes people will do bad things and get away with it. As regards Tor, it's extremely debatable that its existence has any impact at all on the distribution of child pornography. If you don't care about hurting people, there are way more effective ways to protect your anonymity than Tor. In addition, Tor is an incredibly useful tool for fighting corruption in countries where online privacy would otherwise be non-existent. So on the one hand it's a tool that gives anonymity to a group that already has it. On the other hand, it's a tool that aids in reducing human rights abuses across the board, including human trafficking.
- Hannan 14y ago
  >> It's not possible to create a system which protects the and privacy of users with integrity, but not of criminals. Do you have more information or references on this? It seems very intuitively correct to me, but I was hoping someone much more intelligent than me has actually formalized somehow.
  - mistercow 14y ago
    I'm not sure there's any way to formalize it really. It follows pretty much in one step from the axiom "your computer doesn't know if you're scum or not". And if we had the strong AI needed to change that, we'd just be letting a computer invade our privacy and judge us instead of a human or government.
    - tzs 14y ago
      Every time the AI checks and finds out that you are not a scum, its memory could be wiped so that it retains no knowledge of anything private it learned about you during the check.
      - mistercow 14y ago
        That only solves one minor issue with loss of privacy.
  - erjiang 14y ago
    Actually, just consider that illegality is defined by other humans, often arbitrarily. A system that protects the privacy of users who have "American" free speech is simultaneously a system that protects "criminals" who violate blasphemy, royal-insult, obscenity, or any number of other laws in other countries.
kevinskii 14y ago
The sentiments of the parent comment may differ from yours (and mine), but they are intelligently stated and do not deserve to be downvoted.

pwniekins 14y ago

These are the nonsensical laws that result from "illegal data".

duaneb 14y ago
Well, the alternative is... legal child porn? Not saying I like the laws. But i don't know of an alternative to holding people accountable for data.
- forkrulassail 14y ago
  Related article: http://falkvinge.net/2012/09/07/three-reasons-child-porn-must-be-re-legalized-in-the-coming-decade/ http://falkvinge.net/2012/09/07/three-reasons-child-porn-mus... The concept is also touched on in the Assange book.
- joshAg 14y ago
  Criminalize the purposeful making of such data, but legalize possession of all data. think of it like this: it is legal to posses or make video footage of a murder. but it is still illegal to kill someone for the purpose of making such a film.
  - fatbird 14y ago
    This proposal seems especially weak given the ease of anonymously creating such material and 'seeding' it. The point of criminalizing the data is to suppress the market for it in order to reduce the incentives to create it.
    - tjoff 14y ago
      While that is a noble goal, does it work? And is it really worth the sacrifice? Yes, it is awkward to compare something as awful with something as intangible as anonymity. But if you don't draw the line somewhere you will not be able to have a functional society - in which case we might as well be as humane as humanly possible and make good use of our nukes and make sure that there will be no human suffering in the future to worry about.

cynicalkane 14y ago

What the heck? The point of Tor is nobody but the exit node can be easily identified. Are you demanding the authorities have the resources to completely crack Tor before they can arrest anyone? That is probably not the best way to protest this action.

polshaw 14y ago
No, he is saying that the exit node's role is little different from that of any other node that the traffic is routed through (including) after the request hits the exit node-- eg the exit node operator's ISP.
- danielweber 14y ago
  Can anyone just decide to become a common carrier?
  - stfu 14y ago
    Would be an interesting idea to juggle different constructs in order to preserve Tor exit nodes. Maybe they could join together to form some kind of legal entity that acts as the owner of the hardware acting as the node. Would something like this be enough to claim that he only rented out the specific tor machine, therefore not getting the rest of his hardware raided?
    - danielweber 14y ago
      It would also be interesting to see if the operators of the Tor network want to subject themselves to the legal requirements of being a common carrier.