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Caveat: I'm a co-founder of Dev Bootcamp (http://devbootcamp.com http://devbootcamp.com), so I have strong opinions. :D "The problem is this: somehow we mutate

by jfarmer 14y ago

Caveat: I'm a co-founder of Dev Bootcamp (http://devbootcamp.com http://devbootcamp.com), so I have strong opinions. :D "The problem is this: somehow we mutated universities into a place where everyone goes in order to get a job." No, I don't think that's fair. There's no "we." Everyone -- students and institutions -- have a different answer to "what is the purpose of an education?" In the US, we've been experimenting with the full spectrum of answers for the last 150 years. For some students "an education" is the promise of livelihood, for others it's about needs higher up on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Some reasons people "go to school": * Access to expertise and high-quality curriculum * Ability to connect with similarly-motivated people over an extended period of time (think: MBAs) * Credentialing, or in general access to a certificate valued by the market * Cultivating their own internal or external life, becoming a better person, citizen, etc. None of these are better or worse than others, however these mandates often contradict each other. I studied mathematics and linguistics at the University of Chicago and the thing I loved most about the university was that it had a very strong opinion about how to answer “What is an education?” That answer wasn’t for everyone, but the school was comfortable not being “for everyone.” In my mind, by taking care of a small subset of those mandates, Dev Bootcamp helps free universities to have a strong opinion about that question again. Sal Khan wants to call it a "new kind of college," which confuses things a bit. To me it's about understanding all the ways people answer the question "What is an education?" and unbundling those needs.

therandomguy 14y ago
"The problem is this: somehow we mutated universities into a place where everyone goes in order to get a job."... That is indeed fair. The parent I assume is talking about the current general perception about universities in US.
- jfarmer 14y ago
  The "current general perception?" My point was more that if you ask 20 people, "What is the purpose of an education?" you'll get 20 different answers -- everything from "to get a job" to "cultivate the life of the mind."
  - rmah 14y ago
    You may believe that, but the evidence from many surveys shows that it is not true. The vast majority of students and parents really do feel that the purpose of university is to "get a [better] job".
    - jfarmer 14y ago
      You can't just say "many surveys" and leave me hanging! :D And just so I'm clear: I wasn't speaking literally. I did not mean, for example, "Surveys show that among 20 answers to the question, each answer received 5% of the responses within X margin of error." I realize that's a risky thing to do on HN and still be understood.
saraid216 14y ago
> No, I don't think that's fair. There's no "we." Everyone -- students and institutions -- have a different answer to "what is the purpose of an education?" We have different answers, to be sure, but how is that answer expressed? The only thing my parents cared about when I chose my college and major was, "What kind of job can you get with that degree?" I was on good terms with the faculty and staff of my major and they felt compelled to acknowledge that most people worry about having a job when they leave school and thus, that faculty and staff felt obligated to explain the marketability of their taught skills, even if they had to go digging and networking with employers to find such answers. You claim that, in the US, we have been experimenting for 150 years, but you only provide as an example your own, personal anecdotal experience as someone who has become a co-founding entrepreneur. You don't even provide UChicago's answer (which, had you done so, would have been an invitation for other alumni to disagree with you). I don't see any meaningful experimentation happening. I see universities struggling to be everything to everyone, and not really having any idea how to do it anymore, except to provide for the lowest common denominator: the need to make a living after parental support runs out.
- brianchu 14y ago
  UChicago has a well-known reputation for being academic and focused on cultivating a "life of the mind," which is probably why jfarmer neglected specify an answer. And your criticism of his expression of a personal anecdote is unwarranted. Virtually all of the opinions in this thread are going to be based on personal experience. As far as I'm aware, there are no statistics elucidating "the purpose of college." Your last paragraph, for example, is entirely a personal opinion/observation.
  - saraid216 14y ago
    My criticism was that his example of 150 years' worth of experimentation was captured in a single personal experience. Unless he's at least 170 years old, what he said was basically ridiculous. His reply is slightly better, but I'll get to that in a direct reply to him.
- jfarmer 14y ago
jacoblyles 14y ago
I'm a big fan of Dev Bootcamp and similar startups. Traditional universities are a bad deal for students who are going to university to improve their ability to earn a livelihood - a not-insignificant portion of the 3/4 of Americans youths who now attend college. And it is becoming a worse deal as college costs increase. Students need a more flexible, more accessible system of higher education. Over the last 50 years, we've attempted to co-opt the traditional university system to fill the higher education needs of the greater population and the experiment is failing.
- jfarmer 14y ago
  A lot of our students come from backgrounds in higher education, so I want to be careful not to imply that places like Harvard, Oxford, etc. are for "some people" and others just can't meet their standards, so hey, why not set your sights lower and go to vocational school? It's more that because we want universities to be everything to everyone, they've lost a sense of purpose. Some universities retain it -- Chicago, MIT, Harvey Mudd, Reed College, etc. -- and have incredibly strong opinions about how to answer "What is an education?" Most universities can't afford to have a strong opinion, sometimes for legal reasons and sometimes for economic reasons. By removing those contradictions, I'm hope Dev Bootcamp will help free universities to be universities again, and return to them the luxury of holding a strong opinion about the nature of an education.

by jfarmer 14y ago

therandomguy 14y ago

"The problem is this: somehow we mutated universities into a place where everyone goes in order to get a job."... That is indeed fair. The parent I assume is talking about the current general perception about universities in US.

jfarmer 14y ago
The "current general perception?" My point was more that if you ask 20 people, "What is the purpose of an education?" you'll get 20 different answers -- everything from "to get a job" to "cultivate the life of the mind."
- rmah 14y ago
  You may believe that, but the evidence from many surveys shows that it is not true. The vast majority of students and parents really do feel that the purpose of university is to "get a [better] job".
  - jfarmer 14y ago
    You can't just say "many surveys" and leave me hanging! :D And just so I'm clear: I wasn't speaking literally. I did not mean, for example, "Surveys show that among 20 answers to the question, each answer received 5% of the responses within X margin of error." I realize that's a risky thing to do on HN and still be understood.

saraid216 14y ago

> No, I don't think that's fair. There's no "we." Everyone -- students and institutions -- have a different answer to "what is the purpose of an education?" We have different answers, to be sure, but how is that answer expressed? The only thing my parents cared about when I chose my college and major was, "What kind of job can you get with that degree?" I was on good terms with the faculty and staff of my major and they felt compelled to acknowledge that most people worry about having a job when they leave school and thus, that faculty and staff felt obligated to explain the marketability of their taught skills, even if they had to go digging and networking with employers to find such answers. You claim that, in the US, we have been experimenting for 150 years, but you only provide as an example your own, personal anecdotal experience as someone who has become a co-founding entrepreneur. You don't even provide UChicago's answer (which, had you done so, would have been an invitation for other alumni to disagree with you). I don't see any meaningful experimentation happening. I see universities struggling to be everything to everyone, and not really having any idea how to do it anymore, except to provide for the lowest common denominator: the need to make a living after parental support runs out.

brianchu 14y ago
UChicago has a well-known reputation for being academic and focused on cultivating a "life of the mind," which is probably why jfarmer neglected specify an answer. And your criticism of his expression of a personal anecdote is unwarranted. Virtually all of the opinions in this thread are going to be based on personal experience. As far as I'm aware, there are no statistics elucidating "the purpose of college." Your last paragraph, for example, is entirely a personal opinion/observation.
- saraid216 14y ago
  My criticism was that his example of 150 years' worth of experimentation was captured in a single personal experience. Unless he's at least 170 years old, what he said was basically ridiculous. His reply is slightly better, but I'll get to that in a direct reply to him.
jfarmer 14y ago

jacoblyles 14y ago

I'm a big fan of Dev Bootcamp and similar startups. Traditional universities are a bad deal for students who are going to university to improve their ability to earn a livelihood - a not-insignificant portion of the 3/4 of Americans youths who now attend college. And it is becoming a worse deal as college costs increase. Students need a more flexible, more accessible system of higher education. Over the last 50 years, we've attempted to co-opt the traditional university system to fill the higher education needs of the greater population and the experiment is failing.

jfarmer 14y ago
A lot of our students come from backgrounds in higher education, so I want to be careful not to imply that places like Harvard, Oxford, etc. are for "some people" and others just can't meet their standards, so hey, why not set your sights lower and go to vocational school? It's more that because we want universities to be everything to everyone, they've lost a sense of purpose. Some universities retain it -- Chicago, MIT, Harvey Mudd, Reed College, etc. -- and have incredibly strong opinions about how to answer "What is an education?" Most universities can't afford to have a strong opinion, sometimes for legal reasons and sometimes for economic reasons. By removing those contradictions, I'm hope Dev Bootcamp will help free universities to be universities again, and return to them the luxury of holding a strong opinion about the nature of an education.